Not real happy with reef breeders led and sps...add T5 for better growth? Or go MH?

[davidinga]

I've been running two Photon 32 reef breeder leds over my 210gal for a little over a year now on my mixed reef, which is becoming a dominate sps tank now. While nothing dies under these led I have shadowing issues (bases of corals die) and the growth isn't that great (very slow growth for most sps).

To the best of my knowledge all my parameters have been in line for a long time and I have never had any nuisance algae issues or other problems.

Here's the info on my info:

210gal dt (standard 6ft'er)
250# live rock, 150+ # oolite sand
75gal sump
Reef Breeder Photon 32 x2 (running at max of 70/60 for 3 hours) new style led layout with greens/reds/violets/etc
sro3000int skimmer
eheim 1262 return
fuge with chaeto (about a month ago I switched to a vertical algae scrubber that has only recently made enough green algae for one harvest so far. I have noticed only a very slight improvement in coral growth thus far with the scrubber; otherwise no noticeable impact from it thus far)
Jebao WP40 x2
Jebao WP60 x1


15-20 fish mostly tangs/wrasses/chromis/clowns
lps/sps/couple nems


80F
1.025
8.1-8.2 pH
Alk 9
Cal 460
Mg 1360
PO4 (never tested but no algae issue at all)



I am really considering dumping the leds and going just MH with 250w x 3 running either Radiums or 14k phoenix DE and maybe add some moonlights. Before I go all out there I was wondering what everyones thoughts were if I were to keep the leds and add some T5's. Would that possibly improve my slow growth and shadowing issues? If so, how many T5's would be advisable? I was thinking of running either a 2 or 4 bulb retro T5 setup with 2 bulbs each side of the leds, so I would add 4 60" T5's to my existing leds - thoughts?

I have zero experience with T5's as I went led right from the start. If I added T5's what bulb combos would be the best in conjuncture with my leds?

Understand that I am not really anti-led by any means but it seems they are so hard to dial in exactly what is needed in the spectrum that it's just so much easier to throw up some MH and watch the stuff grow like it should. However, since I have led's already I'm thinking it would probably be best to add to whatever it is my leds are missing by supplementing with T5's. I know it would be substantially cheaper on the electric bill to add T5's after running the numbers on the hit I would take to run 3 250w MH too....

Thanks for any/all input.

(and yes this is another one of those endless led vs t5 vs mh vs .... threads :deadhorse: )

 

[tonymission]

LED and MH will both have shadowing issues because they are spotlight style lighting. I'm sure there's a more technical term for this. MH will help with your sps growing issues but you'll have the same browning on the bottom sides and more pastel colors. I just added 4 T5s to my radium setup to combat this on the frag tank.

 

[davidinga]

tonymission;985242 wrote: LED and MH will both have shadowing issues because they are spotlight style lighting. I'm sure there's a more technical term for this. MH will help with your sps growing issues but you'll have the same browning on the bottom sides and more pastel colors. I just added 4 T5s to my radium setup to combat this on the frag tank.

How have the added T5's helped with your setup?

 

[dball711]

tonymission;985242 wrote: LED and MH will both have shadowing issues because they are spotlight style lighting. I'm sure there's a more technical term for this. MH will help with your sps growing issues but you'll have the same browning on the bottom sides and more pastel colors. I just added 4 T5s to my radium setup to combat this on the frag tank.

You will see this with T-5s as well, lighting is a top-down situation so there will always be shadows. I run a reef breeders LED on one tank and ATI T-5's on another. When moving some SPS fromLED to T5, I was amazed at the differece in color onad growth. Not saying LED's are bad, but my experience with the reefbreeders units is they are ok for low light corals (I use it on my zoa/paly tank with great results).

I noticed your lighting schedule is only 3 hours, that seems a bit short? Have you tried a longer cycle?

 

[davidinga]

dball711;985244 wrote: You will see this with T-5s as well, lighting is a top-down situation so there will always be shadows. I run a reef breeders LED on one tank and ATI T-5's on another. When moving some SPS fromLED to T5, I was amazed at the differece in color onad growth. Not saying LED's are bad, but my experience with the reefbreeders units is they are ok for low light corals (I use it on my zoa/paly tank with great results).

I noticed your lighting schedule is only 3 hours, that seems a bit short? Have you tried a longer cycle?

Just the max levels are run at for 3 hours. My total run time is 13 hours I believe.

I was considering running the reef breeders on a more consecutive set power level and do away with a lot of the ramping up and down (so it would be more like t5 or mh lighting instant on/off). How do you run yours?

 

[davidinga]

dball711;985244 wrote: You will see this with T-5s as well, lighting is a top-down situation so there will always be shadows. I run a reef breeders LED on one tank and ATI T-5's on another. When moving some SPS fromLED to T5, I was amazed at the differece in color onad growth. Not saying LED's are bad, but my experience with the reefbreeders units is they are ok for low light corals (I use it on my zoa/paly tank with great results).

I noticed your lighting schedule is only 3 hours, that seems a bit short? Have you tried a longer cycle?

Since you have RB led's do you have any thoughts on the best 2-4 t5 bulbs to add in for better growth? And a good t5 retro kit for that matter....


thanks

 

[glxtrix]

If you want to add T5 as supp...get good quality reflectors...a lot of T5 performance derives from good quality reflectors. Also look into the Vue660 ballast. You could go with a work horse ballast too if you wanted something cheaper and it wont OD the bulbs. Thing is, keep the bulbs cool. If you do that you'll get better life out of them as well as performance. ATI has the cooling down.

 

[davidinga]

Bassett22;985256 wrote: SPS should grow under those lights fine with proper consistent water quality.

If you want to swap lights just to experiment, then mh's with T-5 suppliments are a proven grower, you will be adding a decent amount of heat to the tank, that doesnt mean you will definitely need a chiller, but it is something to consider before you switch.

Your tank is a little deep for t-5s to penetrate well enough. how low in the water is the rock work and sps corals placed?

I see a lot of feedback online that leds do grow alright but still not completely competing with MH or t5 for sps... A lot of people seem to go back to mh or t5 and see better growth overall.

Most of the sps is probably halfway down or so.

 

[hiimsean]

I've seen a lot of people add LET retro fit kits with LEDs with good results. I'm pretty sure the kit comes with ATI reflectors. That's what I'm planning on doing this fall.

 

[dball711]

DavidinGA;985249 wrote: Since you have RB led's do you have any thoughts on the best 2-4 t5 bulbs to add in for better growth? And a good t5 retro kit for that matter....


thanks

No I have no experience mixing T5 and LED but in my ATI 6 bulb fixture I use ATI bulbs. Blue+ & Coral+ seem to have a lot of PAR, Purple+ is one I add to enhance the color spectrum when I use a 6 bulb unit.

 

[davidinga]

HiImSean;985261 wrote: I've seen a lot of people add LET retro fit kits with LEDs with good results. I'm pretty sure the kit comes with ATI reflectors. That's what I'm planning on doing this fall.

Any links to this LET retro kit?

 

[seth the wine guy]

Before doing a drastic lighting change, I would suggest getting some good numbers on your PO4 and NO3. A photometer would be ideal as most PO4 test kits are worthless. I know you said algae isn't a problem but that doesn't mean they are still low enough for many acros to be happy.

 

[davidinga]

Seth The Wine Guy;985280 wrote: Before doing a drastic lighting change, I would suggest getting some good numbers on your PO4 and NO3. A photometer would be ideal as most PO4 test kits are worthless. I know you said algae isn't a problem but that doesn't mean they are still low enough for many acros to be happy.

True, but since I have an algae scrubber online and feed light I wouldn't think that would be an issue...

 

[tonymission]

dball711;985244 wrote: You will see this with T-5s as well, lighting is a top-down situation so there will always be shadows. I run a reef breeders LED on one tank and ATI T-5's on another. When moving some SPS fromLED to T5, I was amazed at the differece in color onad growth. Not saying LED's are bad, but my experience with the reefbreeders units is they are ok for low light corals (I use it on my zoa/paly tank with great results).



I noticed your lighting schedule is only 3 hours, that seems a bit short? Have you tried a longer cycle?

It's not exactly top-down. Someone a lot smarter than I has done a lot of testing and research on how T5s light a tank versus MH and LED. That's why you never see a MH/LED combo. They both do the same thing, albeit with different results. T5s have a way of almost surrounding the corals with light and reduce shadowing on SPS especially. Other corals this is probably less beneficial. They're also able to almost reflect off a sand bed and light the undersides as well. I can't remember if I saw it on RC and R2R but there's basis to it with a lot of pictures and data to back it up.

 

[seth the wine guy]

tonymission;985283 wrote: It's not exactly top-down. Someone a lot smarter than I has done a lot of testing and research on how T5s light a tank versus MH and LED. That's why you never see a MH/LED combo. They both do the same thing, albeit with different results. T5s have a way of almost surrounding the corals with light and reduce shadowing on SPS especially.

I'd have to disagree with your characterization of how MH lights a tank. It is one of the best methods I've experienced to avoid shadowing. The reflector has more to do with how the light behaves more than than anything.

I run a pure MH/LED combo. If you are willing to wade through the video, you can see an example of how I used the two in Thomas Brown's Tank Wars episode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQWGGwgAdoc&list=UU20FNzjmKeKfZX79PXDokBw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQWGGwgAdoc&list=UU20FNzjmKeKfZX79PXDokBw</a>
You can skip to about 3 minutes in to see that part.

It also shows what type of results I've had with that lighting combination.

 

[enderg60]

I run halides and T5's around the perimeter angled toward the center of the tank to get rid of the shadows under rocks and such and I think its a perfect balance.

I considered going to LED's for a while but the payback period is still longer then the life of the LED fixtures and Im not all that convinced the growth is anywhere near as good as the halides.

I do however plan to replace the actinic t5's with LED's just for the color.

Other then that I love my setup.

 

[tonymission]

Seth The Wine Guy;985285 wrote: I'd have to disagree with your characterization of how MH lights a tank. It is one of the best methods I've experienced to avoid shadowing. The reflector has more to do with how the light behaves more than than anything.

I run a pure MH/LED combo. If you are willing to wade through the video, you can see an example of how I used the two in Thomas Brown's Tank Wars episode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQWGGwgAdoc&list=UU20FNzjmKeKfZX79PXDokBw">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQWGGwgAdoc&list=UU20FNzjmKeKfZX79PXDokBw</a>
You can skip to about 3 minutes in to see that part.

It also shows what type of results I've had with that lighting combination.[/QUOTE]



That's a really sweet setup Seth! I did wade through the video. There are plenty of ways to pull off a successful reef and you've obviously done that, but I think generally speaking, the point remains. T5s are a really good supplement to combat the spotlight effect of a both LEDs and MHs. You have top level reflectors for your MHs and your kessils appear angled which I assume allows for more light "around" the rocks and corals. I think that's a great layout. Didn't say it couldn't be done but all in one fixtures have yet to incorporate that same setup. Makes the angles and higher level reflectors impossible to put together in a single fixture.

 

[marquiseo]

I am making the switch for coverage, coloration, and growth. I have had radions since I started in this hobby along with other fixtures. LEDs grow corals but I have always had too many shadowing areas even in a minimalistic aqua scape. I, also, want achieve the best coloration which is why I dose trace elements using my Red Sea Reef Care program. I am willing to see the difference between each while still on the program.

 

[davidinga]

Cost


Current setup

2 Reefbreeders Photon 32's
3120w used per day (based on power levels throughout the day and used a kill-a-watt for real world power consumption).

So 3.12 kw per day @ 0.15/kw costs $0.468 per day to run the reefbreeders and $14.04 a month in electricity



T5 (based on bulb wattage, not sure if it uses more or less power than that)

2 80w Bulb 60" @ 6 hours a day $4.32/month
4 80w Bulb 60" @ 6 hours a day $8.55/month

2 80w bulb 60" @ 8 hours a day $5.76/month
4 80w bulb 60" @ 8 hours a day $11.52/month



So say I run the LED's just as they are now and supplement 4 60" T5's for 6 hours a day; that puts my electrical usage at $22.59 a month for lights.

Then I'm only a couple dollars away from just going full MH - 250w x3 = 750w @ 8hrs/day = 6000w or $0.90/day = $27 a month for lights.

I assume having a deep tank I probably wouldn't have any water temp over heating issues but how much ambient heat will those three MH's put off add to the cost to now re-cool that air in the house during the summer months? MH heat is a bonus in the winter to save on heating but I'm in GA so our winters are generally short anyways....

 

[dball711]

Also know that T5 bulbs need to be replaced every 8-12 months. With 4 bulbs thats $100-$150 additional every bulb change.