Reefer 525 Build

kzoo;1110376 wrote: I understand the other things you are dosing but can you explain the H2O2? I have seen others use this to get rid of cyano but never set up on a dosing pump.

The chemistry/biology is beyond me but during a recent webinar they were explaining how small levels of H2O2 are effective at improving coral colors. I'm at 1ml / 10 gallons right now but they stressed that it can be very dangerous and must be used with caution.
 
LONG Update BUT Please READ as I need YOUR help!

Thought Id update with a full dump of what I've experienced over the last 6 months.

Ill start with at this point I AM SO DAM frustrated I want to throw in the towel. And even worse my wife wants me to bag it call it a failure and sell it all off.

The crux is of the issue is that the water chemistry will not stabilize. Something is very very wrong.

Since Ive set this tank up it burns 1 to 2 dkh per day. Yes per day. With NO LIVESTOCK that would consume it.

No coral.
No coralline.
A few fish.

I have spoken with many folks, read everything and I mean everything on the reef forums regarding this and NOBODY can explain to me what is going on.

So. Normally this would be explained by precipitation. Look at the glass, heaters, pumps, sump and check the sand. NONE of these areas have shown any signs of precipitation. I drip it in slowly on the order of a ml or 2 every 15 minutes. No signs of precipitation anywhere

Once added alkalinity measurements agree with the calculators.

Ive tried the following to hit my target numbers of dKh of 7.5 to 8 and Calcium of 420 to 430ppm:

Increase dosing. This just increases consumption/precipitation.
Decrease or stop dosing. This results in the dKh bottoming out around 5.
No dosing for 3 weeks to allow for any CaCO3 nucleation sites to be poisoned and no longer precipitate.
Different types of dosing: 2 part (both recipes using carbonate and bicarbonate), balling method, tropic marin bio calcium
90% water change to reset
Changed Salt mixes

Nothing has made any difference. Same consumption. The calcium and alkalinity just disappear over night every single day.

I have a 20 gallon frag tank that I pictured previously. This is where my corals are and they are doing OK. The Alkalinity and Calcium levels in this tank are solid. No daily swings. Normal consumption of 2 to 4 ml/week.

So I've looked at the differences between the tanks and the difference outside of equipment (pretty sure I can eliminate the equipment from consuming alkalinity/Ca as at this point it would be a solid block of concrete.) is that the display tank has sand and rock.

The sand is Caribsea special grade live sand. It looks normal. It behaves normally. It has no clumping. I stir it and nothing out of the ordinary happens just a bit of detritus kicks up. No signs of anything wrong.

The rock is Caribsea life rock. It is the manmade purple stuff. Ive been closely observing everything in the last few weeks and noticed that the rock is no longer purple. It is encrusted with grey/greyish green/brown. I tried brushing them off and this does nothing so this coating is certainly attached. Is it possible that the rock is precipitating the alkalinity/calcium?

I reached out to the LFS and they never heard of such a thing but quickly qualified it with they don't know of anyone who did a full tank build with this rock. They were kind enough to reach out to Caribsea. Caribsea of course denied that it could be the rock causing the issue.

So I'm left with a mystery and a tank that has very unstable water conditions. Ive tested coral in the tank and it either barely hangs on or dies. I'm stuck. Its been 6 months and I cant put any coral in my REEF tank.

What would you do? Looking for any and all advice.
 
Hate to ask this dumb question if I missed it, what are you using to test Alk with?
 
xilez;1111828 wrote: Hate to ask this dumb question if I missed it, what are you using to test Alk with?



Hannah checker and also verified at lfs
 
No idea man... I would copy paste that wall of text on R2R on Randy Farley Homes sub section and see what he says... Hope you can get this figured out, I loved this setup!
 
xilez;1111830 wrote: No idea man... I would copy paste that wall of text on R2R on Randy Farley Homes sub section and see what he says... Hope you can get this figured out, I loved this setup!



Thanks. Already done. Hopefully Randy will chime in.
 
Mot;1111831 wrote: Thanks. Already done. Hopefully Randy will chime in.



I followed your post on r2r. I browse the forums quite a bit and not sure I've seen this problem. I have heard tanks use up alkalinity during cycling but I don't think that applies to your question. I'm sure Randy will pop in with a couple of questions for you and then drop some information bombs. Best of luck to you.
 
I'm no expert by any means but my hanna testers were giving me false readings. I also had API which were never the same and that's what LFS seem to use for free tests. I got Red Sea pro tests and I feel personally they are more accurate. I have experienced much more growth since. YMMV FWIW
 
I'm sorry to hear about the frustrations.

What I say can is we have used TONS of Caribsea Liferock since it was released and we have never had the issue you have described. We have many tanks running 100% on the Liferock with absolutely no stability issues or precipitation issues.
 
Are you dosing alkalinity and calcium at the same time? They could be canceling each other out if you are. I had the same issue where I was dosing them at the same time and could never get my alkalinity right. I just keep spending money and test kits until my LFS said that you have to stagger those dosings. Hope this helps. Good luck. Your tank is way too cool for this to stop it from happening.
 
aXio;1111852 wrote: I'm sorry to hear about the frustrations.

What I say can is we have used TONS of Caribsea Liferock since it was released and we have never had the issue you have described. We have many tanks running 100% on the Liferock with absolutely no stability issues or precipitation issues.

Excellent. Thanks man for that confirmation that the rock isnt the problem. Replacing the rock would really suck. After posting in R2R it is highly probably that I have coralline taking off on the rock. So this would explain the consumption going on now. I still wonder where the alkalinity was going in the first few months before I added frags. I had one person mention that carbon dosing which I was doing with Aquaforest line of products can consume alkalinity. So maybe it was a multiple things happening.

The plan right now is:

1. Continue to dose the tank with alk/ca to maintain 8/420.
2. Get a good Mg reading. Ive had a few folks recommend Salifert
 
ReeferKeifer;1111853 wrote: Are you dosing alkalinity and calcium at the same time? They could be canceling each other out if you are. I had the same issue where I was dosing them at the same time and could never get my alkalinity right. I just keep spending money and test kits until my LFS said that you have to stagger those dosings. Hope this helps. Good luck. Your tank is way too cool for this to stop it from happening.

Thanks Keith. I appreciate the encouragement. I wish it was as simple as dosing incorrectly.
 
Hey Jeff, I just went through something similar. I think it's just part of the learning curve, just that everyone's system is going to do things a little different. It can be quite frustrating to figure out but once you do you'll be on the right track. Just remember if you're putting it in and your numbers keep dropping it's going somewhere, most likely to precipitate. It can't drop that much any other way, once pecip starts it's like a runaway train and the more dosing you do the more fuel it has to keep precping out. I did look at your thread and pics on R2R. While there may be a little coraline on the rocks it's not enough to pull that much alk by itself. You've said there's no precipitate that you can find anywhere else in the tank like heaters, glass, pumps or the sand. I'd say it's mostly on the rock and probably on the sand under areas of the rock. I believe the rock has precip and a light film of algae on it and little if any coraline. You would have to have put something in the tank that had coraline on it for it to begin to spread in the system.

Throughout all of this you haven't posted what you have been dosing and exactly how much. I figure after your rock sand and equipment you have about 95 to 110 gallons of total system volume, let's call it 105. This is what I'd do in your shoes, step back and take a deep breath. Now stop all dosing of everything, nada, nothing for a couple days, no products of any kind. Then after a couple days do a big water change. 50-75% and let it sit without doing any dosing for another few days. The only things running should be your main pump, powerheads, ATO, heater(s) and skimmer. I would also use a cheaper salt right now, plain ole Instant Ocean. There's no sense spending more money on the salt when you've got nothing growing yet, just make sure the system is at 35ppt. Once you've done the water change take readings of Alk, Cal & Mag and post them here along with the PH & salinity (Taken with a calibrated Refractometer). Then test the alk at the same time each day for the following few days posting those numbers too, along with PH. Also tell us what your light schedule and intensity is.

Feed your livestock at the normal times you do now but a little more sparingly at each feeding. When you're done with this the water should be back in ionic balance and the precip will have stopped. We can then start helping you build your numbers back up the right way.
 
anit77;1111863 wrote: Hey Jeff, I just went through something similar. I think it's just part of the learning curve, just that everyone's system is going to do things a little different. It can be quite frustrating to figure out but once you do you'll be on the right track. Just remember if you're putting it in and your numbers keep dropping it's going somewhere, most likely to precipitate. It can't drop that much any other way, once pecip starts it's like a runaway train and the more dosing you do the more fuel it has to keep precping out. I did look at your thread and pics on R2R. While there may be a little coraline on the rocks it's not enough to pull that much alk by itself. You've said there's no precipitate that you can find anywhere else in the tank like heaters, glass, pumps or the sand. I'd say it's mostly on the rock and probably on the sand under areas of the rock. I believe the rock has precip and a light film of algae on it and little if any coraline. you would have to have put something in the tank that had coraline on it for it to begin to spread in the system.

Throughout all of this you haven't posted what you have been dosing and exactly how much. I figure after your rock sand and equipment you have about 95 to 110 gallons of total system volume, let's call it 105. This is what I'd do in your shoes, step back and take a deep breath. Now stop all dosing of everything, nada, nothing for a couple days, no products of any kind. Then after a couple days do a big water change. 50-75% and let it sit without doing any dosing for another few days. The only things running should be your main pump, powerheads, ATO. heater(s) and skimmer. I would also use a cheaper salt right now, plain ole Instant Ocean. There's no sense spending more money on the salt when you've got nothing growing yet, just make sure the system is at 35ppt. Once you've done the water change take readings of Alk, Cal & Mag and post them here along with the PH & salinity (Taken with a calibrated Refractometer). Then test the alk at the same time each day for the following few days posting those numbers too, along with PH. Also tell us what your light schedule and intensity is.

Feed your live stock at the normal times you do now but a little more sparingly at each feeding. When you're done with this the water should be back in ionic balance and the precip will have stopped. We can then start helping you build your numbers back up the right way.

+1 I was going to suggest something similar. We see it quite often where people just plain over do it at the beginning. Way too much dosing, way to many systems right off the bat... instead of just letting the system be and settle. From your pictures you are already dosing Acropower, Iron supplement, etc... I think you might jumped into all the dosing a bit too soon. We don't even recommend supplements like Acropower right from the start. Now I'm not saying those are adding to the precipitation, but just trying to drive the point home that you may just have over done it at the start.

I personally would do what Adam is suggesting. Stop ALL dosing. Let the system bottom out and get to a base line. Sometimes it is the only way to stop the precipitation. The take it easy after that... No more then a basic 2 Part dosing at the start until you get some actual coral and life stock... and even with the 2 part careful not to over do it.

I will how ever politely disagree with Adam on the salt. Personally I feel it is best to start with the salt you plan on using and stick to that salt the entire time.
 
I think I read on the R2R thread that he has stopped all dosing at one point, in which the tank bottomed out at 5 dkH and there was a 90% water change thrown in somewhere, correct me if I misinterpreted it.

I have a hard time believing that is coraline, but this hobby has fooled me many times. i'd be curious if you spaced the dosing out over a 24hr period if your numbers would remain more stable.... It is shocking how fast your alk drops with the lack of stony corals in the system. But either way, 2 dkH can be a big swing for a lot of corals...id try dosing throughout the day instead of once a day to bring levels back up
 
aXio;1111864 wrote: I will how ever politely disagree with Adam on the salt. Personally I feel it is best to start with the salt you plan on using and stick to that salt the entire time.

I'll give you that Jakub, I'm still learning too. He's been using Aquaforest salt and he's showing Mg off the chart in his coral QT tank. As someone else posted on R2R, I too have seen reports of high Mg with that salt. If you were going to go with one brand and stick with it what would you use? I'm currently using RC myself.

xilez;1111865 wrote: I think I read on the R2R thread that he has stopped all dosing at one point, in which the tank bottomed out at 5 dkH and there was a 90% water change thrown in somewhere, correct me if I misinterpreted it.

I have a hard time believing that is coraline, but this hobby has fooled me many times. i'd be curious if you spaced the dosing out over a 24hr period if your numbers would remain more stable.... It is shocking how fast your alk drops with the lack of stony corals in the system. But either way, 2 dkH can be a big swing for a lot of corals...id try dosing throughout the day instead of once a day to bring levels back up

Yes he said he stop dosing for a bit. But if he started back up before the system bottomed out and was dosing unevenly the precip would have started right back like it was. That's why I'm saying let it sit a couple days, do the water change, then let it sit a few days afterwards. By the beginning of next week everything will have settled and we can get a good baseline of his true numbers.
 
Oh, and by the way. I bugged the crap out of Brett and Ricky while I was figuring all this out myself. While I haven't been dosing all the other stuff Jeff has I was way out of balance. I've since got everything stable. My numbers aren't where I want them but it's stabile and I'm going with that and taking it much slower. I'm shooting for 9.5dkh, 430Cal, 1400Mg and PH consistently over 8.1. What I have now is 8.6-8.9dkh, 430Cal, 1460Mg and PH 8.02-8.08.
 
Yea, I did let the system bottom out twice actually. Once in November for three weeks and then between March 12th and 20th. I stopped all dosing and water changes. When I started back it was equal portions of brs 2 part to have an increase of 0.5 dkh per day. It looked like it was working both times. But at about 7dkh everything went to hell again and the battle to maintain the dkh started all over. I just need to get over to the store and get that Mg test and see what it really is first before doing anything else.

The thing about this that really bothers me is if it is precipitation which is what I have been assuming is the problem....where is the precipitation? Its not in the sand, its not in the sump, its not on the equipment? Only thing that look different to me is the rock which used to be bright painted purple and is now greyish.

I do have an algae break out after the last dosing stop. At that time I cleaned the sump and pulled my large Marine pure block and Im sure created a nitrogen cycle issue. My thinking was maybe it was collecting the precipitate...it clearly wasn't. Maybe I should put it back in. Though the algae is dieing off hard at this point now that I have resumed dosing/water changes. I think Ill let it ride and just see where I am in a couple weeks on that.
 
Mot;1111874 wrote: Yea, I did let the system bottom out twice actually. Once in November for three weeks and then between March 12th and 20th. I stopped all dosing and water changes</em>. When I started back it was equal portions of brs 2 part to have an increase of 0.5 dkh per day. It looked like it was working both times. But at about 7dkh everything went to hell again and the battle to maintain the dkh started all over. I just need to get over to the store and get that Mg test and see what it really is first before doing anything else.


I think not doing a water change was a problem here. After letting it sit for 2 to 3 day a big water change was needed. Bumping it up .5dkh a day is the other problem, I did this too. A larger move of 1 to 1.4dkh made in split doses over an hour or so is needed. And not necessarily in even doses of 2part depending on where your cal is at the time. But you have no real livestock pulling those elements out now so there should be no reason to dose yet. By stopping dosing for a few days you will stop the precip. Then the large water change will bring things back closer to normal. Then monitor to see what's happening. Once there you may need to make a slight adjustment that needs to be done all at one time.

Mot;1111874 wrote: The thing about this that really bothers me is if it is precipitation which is what I have been assuming is the problem....where is the precipitation? Its not in the sand, its not in the sump, its not on the equipment? Only thing that look different to me is the rock which used to be bright painted purple and is now greyish.

I think the discoloration on the rock is the precip. It can start in different places, it doesn't have to be on glass and heaters. It just happened to start there in you case and once it starts the only thing that will stop it is to stop dosing. It also looks like the areas of your pics that are more purple is just spots that aren't covered in precip. Have you checked the sand at the edges or underneath any of the rock, especially where you see the most discoloration on the rock?

Mot;1111874 wrote: I do have an algae break out after the last dosing stop. At that time I cleaned the sump and pulled my large Marine pure block and Im sure created a nitrogen cycle issue. My thinking was maybe it was collecting the precipitate...it clearly wasn't. Maybe I should put it back in. Though the algae is dieing off hard at this point now that I have resumed dosing/water changes. I think Ill let it ride and just see where I am in a couple weeks on that.

At this point butting the block back in may lead to a nutrient spike as the bacteria that was in it is now dead. If you rinse it real well it may help but I'd lean against it at the moment.
Again I would stop all dosing for a few days then do a big water change with no dosing afterwards. Now "Let it ride" and see where you are. It's that water change that will bring the levels part of the way back up and do it evenly. I'd even go as far to say let it sit a couple weeks then do a 20% water change. Until you have corals in the tank there is no need to be doing any dosing . Water changes alone will replenish what you've lost. Water changes alone will even work while you only have a few frags in the DT.
 
Back
Top