Dynos and coral issues

[fishyfishy]

Hey everyone. Wondering if anyone has any advice. I've been battling some tank issues recently and my coral is still struggling to recover.

The start to the problem was that I lost prime on my alkalinity, when I tested all had dropped to around 6dkh and pH was in the 7.6 range.

I fixed that issue and have been putting in a lot of alk to slowly bring it up. Over about 2.5 weeks I'm back up to around 9 and PH has stabilized more around 8. It's been stable more or less for a week.

Calcium is 400 (has been stable)

Mag is at 1280

Nitrate - about 2pmm.   Phos- about .01



Now I'm battling Dino's. Rock and sand are pretty dirty. Ive been blasting the tank with a turkey baster and letting the socks filter it out. Will Continue with this unless things don't improve. Do Dino's ever kill coral? I do notice it building up on branches and I blow it off when I see it.

I put my curve 7 skimmer on the tank in place of the red Sea one, easier to tune and I figured right now I could use something consistent even if it is maybe a hair undersized.

Any suggestions other than what I am doing? Mostly my euphylia (torches and hammers) are looking the worse. Most acro's have no polyp extension. Flow is pretty strong and lot by 4 Hydra 26hds.

 

[bhodges82]

What’s the salinity? Temperature? A water change may help even if your numbers look good.

 

[danh]

I had dinos in my 5g and they seemed to kill the coral because they were sucking up all of the nutrients. I got rid of them for a few months with about a 10 day process of a 3 day black out, large water change, 3 days normal, another 3 day black out then another big water change the last day. I had read water changes weren't helpful, so I had let it go prior to this treatment and it didn't help. They started coming back in the last week or so... Then over this pas weekend the power went out to my row of offices and nearly everything died.... dino problem solved I guess.........

 

[fishyfishy]

Yea I think it is growing on the polyps and starving them or irritating them. I guess some Dyno is also toxic?

Time to go into battle mode. I thought blasting the coral, rock, and sand was working but like an hour later it's back like I never did anything.

I'm hearing good things about blackouts. I'm worried since my coral is already stressed, going black might kill some? Also hearing dino x could work or hydrogen peroxide.

Just to figure out what I want to do. I did a water change yesterday. Temp is between 78-79.5 each day. Salinity shows 1.023 on the Apex but my refrac shows 1.025, which I trust more.

 

[Adam]

You need to be able to reliably know your test numbers are accurate, repeated results and cross check with another brand.

The Mag needs to come up to the high 1300's, shoot for 1400. Once you get it there Cal should be in the 420's to 430's with Alk in the 9 range.

With the Dyno's. Turkey basting them into the water column may be irritating the corals. Try to suck them out on and around the coral. Then this thread is a great resource for battling them.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dinoflagellates-%E2%80%93-are-you-tired-of-battling-altogether.293318/

A Salinity probe can be a pain to calibrate. Bubbles are your main enemy. Also temp comp of 2.2 usually helps but it's best done with a temp probe in the same compartment as the salinity probe. Then make sure the calibration packet has floated in the sump for at least 20 minutes then cut the corner of the packet and suspend it in the sump. I find a measuring cup that can be hung from a weir is good for this. Start the calibration and let the probe sit in the packet for 5 to 10 minutes swirling it around occasionally. When done right it is very accurate. I keep my tank at 1.025 as well and the probe is always showing between 33.3 and 33.8ppm... unless a bubble or piece of debris gets in there.

 

[fishyfishy]

Very helpful Adam, thank you. It sounds like Dino's like uln water. Do you think turning off my refugium light for a week and feeding heavy might allow other bacteria and algae to take hold?

Ill continue keeping the corals clear of it, I'll try sucking and removing rather than blowing.

I tried to calibrate the salinity probe with the temp compensation but it wouldn't let me. Whenever I selected that, the calibrate button would grey out. I have a temp sensor in the same chamber. I'll try to recalibrate soon and see if I can get that fixed.

 

[FutureInterest]

So I battled dinos as well.  Dinos can show up in any tank when the conditions are right.  It's funny that you never see dinos in a fowlr tank because dinos are simply zooxanthallae that have gone rogue.  When corals get stressed, which happened when your alk went that low... they will expel their zooxanthallae.... which want to live and start reproducing... thus you have dinos.

I tried everything in that thread and nothing worked... eventually though it just went away on its own.  It was noticeably better every day until it was gone.  My theory is simply that... something started eating it.  I dunno if it was one of the pods I had added to the tank in desperation... but it does make sense.  Something must eat these things in the wild or they would just take over the whole reef .  I'd be happy to give you a piece of live rock from that tank if you want to give that a try.  Not sure if the buggers that ate it are still around but it wouldn't hurt...

 

[Adam]

Do you think turning off my refugium light for a week and feeding heavy might allow other bacteria and algae to take hold?

I'd do one or the other. I'm not a fan of doing two things at once, it could take you way too far in the other direction. Starting with the Fuge light first would be a good place to begin. Then see where your nutrients go after a few days and take it from there. Getting your big three back in balance should help as well.

If you need a hand with the Apex let me know. I help several people remotely.

*Edit* I also agree with adding pods. Feeding Phyto at lights out will feed the pods and coral, which in turn will raise nutrients. I'm battling some of my own issues and have cut the Phyto feedings as of late but I can tell you corals love it. Add it at lights out and shut down the skimmer for four hours afterwards.

 

[fishyfishy]

Ok I'm gonna try that. I'm still turkey basting and trying to manually get some out to give the coral some relief.

I'm gonna go no fuge light for a couple days and try the phyto out. Plus side, being so focused on the tank I found my goby got grabbed by my carpet anemone and I was able to rescue him, hopefully he's gonna make it, was a bit beat up.

@futureinterest I might take you up on that. I'll definitely let you know. Even if it doesnt help, more biodiversity is always good.

 

[fishyfishy]

Introducing the dino blaster 5000. I have heard UV is definitely helpful in battling Dino's I'm already running a 25 watt UV connected off my main pump, but figured I could fashion something that would help immediately blast and filter the dino.

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I basically fashioned a gravel vac to a small pump and fed that through a separate little UV sterilizer and then into a filter sock. I use the turkey baster and blast the rock and hold the tube right by the area to capture the blown off dinos, also works well in the sand, just vacuum the sand bed and the dino all travels through the uv.

I've been knocking back the growth multiple times per day and letting it run to my sump but hopefully with this addition I can gain a leg over this.

 

[Adam]

That's pretty industrious!

I like to vacuum my sump through a filter sock. But this is a level above!

 

[fishyfishy]

Well this is going to be interesting. Hopefully at the outcome of this I'll have some good knowledge for people who get dinoflagellates.

My attack plan has stayed the same, I'm just going at it in creative ways I think. Either it will work, or it won't.

1st part of plan is to keep dino off corals, it is irritating the hell out of them, they are bleaching and receding, blowing it off seems to be helping them out.

2nd part is to get as much water as possible run through UV, and filter socks. This stuff comes back so quick it's a full day battle. Every hour or so, blasting rocks, using my dino blaster 5000 and changing socks often.

3rd part that I am working on is letting the tank get dirty. Dino seems to thrive in low nutrients but uptakes nutrients poorly. Common thought is if you can get another algae to take hold it will outcompete the Dino's.

So with that thought process I'm trying to raise my nutrients up a bit and actually moved my fuge light to the display. I pointed it mostly at the glass and some mostly bare sand. We will see if I can get some hair algae or something going.

Am I crazy... Maybe.  Let me know your thoughts.

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[bcavalli]

Nice work on the uv setup.  Every time Ive seen a tank with dinos something is out of balance and silica is in the water.  You might want to get a triton test kit and send it off.  Its always best to try and resolve it at the source, otherwise it may happen again.  Also check your RODI filters if your running one.  The usual culprit of silica in your tank is old ro filters and di resin.  Just a few thoughts.

 

[mot]

Maybe i missed it, How do you know you have a dinoflagellate outbreak?  And have you identified them?

 

[fishyfishy]

Yes I agree the source should be identified. I replaced the prefilter, carbon and di cartridge not too long ago. Reading just 2 or 3 ppm before di. Triton might be worth it, it's a new build/upgrade so newer sand and lots of changes.

I'm self identifying it as dinoflagellates. I don't have a microscope to identify strain but it's snotty and bubbly if I leave it to grow, within 30 minutes it will be back in places I cleaned. I could be wrong, but let me know if I could be off on ID.

 

[Adam]

With the water we have here in metro Atlanta, at least in Gwinnett, you should be seeing zero or 1 ppm after the RO filter. I run a dual stage "Water Saver" RO setup, so there's 2 RO membranes run in series. The 2nd membrane has a higher load and puts out a little dirtier water. The reading I get at startup, after flushing and running 2.5 min of the output to drain, is 2. After 5 or so minutes it's 1 and sometimes gets to zero. With a single RO membrane you should be seeing zero after 10 minutes or so max. BRS has some good vids on RODI.

Have you done anything to get your big three back in balance yet?

 

[fishyfishy]

Not yet, I need to pick up some magnesium and more alk. I can run to the lfs today and grab some. Can calcium and magnesium be raised quickly or should I slowly raise each. I wasn't far off on the values that you posted.

I probably need to replace my ro filter sometime in the near future. I do think it gets down to 1ppm after but it used to be 0ppm.

Can silicates come through the di even if it's reading 0ppm out?

 

[Adam]

I try and follow this ratio:

http://www.ultimatereef.net/pages/calcium_alkalinity/

The balance of 9dKH Alkalinity is
424ppm Calcium

It's easier said than done. But the closer you get to it the more stable things are. You Mag isn't low per se, but most will say closer to 1400 is better. I shoot for 1400-1450. You can raise it by 100ppm or less per day and you should do it first. If you're still in the 1280 range going up 100 is good enough to get started with the other two.

If your Alk is still at 9dkh and Cal at 400 you can raise the Cal up to 50ppm per day. So going up 25 points is no big deal. Getting those in line should be priority #1. Then keep an eye on your nutrients.

With DI resin. IIRC silicates are relatively neutral charged and if you're using a single stage DI some can pass through and the TDS will still show zero. Also if the resin has bound up all the silicates that it can hold and something with a stronger charge comes along it will release the silicate to grab that higher charged molecule. Here's a good BRS video about it. Yes they're pushing their products in the vids, but the science they use behind them is valid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AneKtQkvudw

 

[fishyfishy]

I picked up some magnesium and drove my number up to 1400. My calcium has been steady and alk is still around 9. I think the corals responded well to the boost in magnesium, they are looking healthier.

I think my diligence in keeping the Dino's at Bay and off the coral has paid off. I spent many hours working the sand and rock to remove as much as possible, running it through filters and UV, while also running my fuge light in the display over night. I got some nice algae on the glass and the issue was retreating.

I added some vibrant today. I will add 15ml each week and see if that cleans the rest up. There is very little left.

Got to say I am happy that this problem seems pretty much tackled and it only took a week or so. Hopefully my ideas help the next person who has a dino problem.

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[bcavalli]

Great job!