Aqua Illumination The Great Debate Continues

[seth the wine guy]

Dialog to this thread is a continuation from another thread that went off topic which can be found here. http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?p=700302#post700302">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?p=700302#post700302</a>

Dave, (Acroholic) my comment directed to you in the above thread was meant in playful banter. Nothing more. In person it would have been accompanied by a chuckle and a couple elbow pumps to your ribs. Sorry you took it the wrong way.

[QUOTE=][B]Acroholic;700234 wrote:[/B]
For example, the AI recommended number of modules for a 48" long, 24" wide, 24" deep tank with the units 12" or less above the water line is 4[/QUOTE]

I missed this on their website. I could have missed it. But, they claim each of their units is equivalent to 270 watts of MH. If that's the case you and/or they are suggesting 1070 watts of MH for a 120g tank. Wow.

My entire issue or "beef" (as you would put it) with AI is with the fact their claims are FALSE! Be it their posted charts or verbal/written recommendations. Looking at their chart alone, common sense will illustrate that. Chart I'm referring to being here: ([IMG]http://www.aquaillumination.com/sol/performance.html">http://www.aquaillumination.com/sol/performance.html</a>) Off Aqua Illuminations website. Image also attached.

So,how does a rectangular shaped module produce a balanced spherical foot print of light? I'm no geometry wiz but I would call that a misrepresentation. (The only possible explanation I can think of is: The only pucks generating relevant light for PAR are the inner four with the 40* optics and the four outer 70* pucks are just there to help wash out the intense columns of light the 40's produce.)
But, I measured my PAR directly beneath the fixture with all 70* optics today and got 300 uMol in the sand bed (22" down with three units) at 100% power. The 40* optic theory is debunked.

You bring up the fact I've got two units on a 120g tank 47x24x25. (Had to do a custom tank to fit my space) BUT, you don't mention the fact I've got a coast to coast overflow that's 6" wide thus reducing my usable area for corals to 18". (Another mistake! That overflow! Wish I would have done it differently) I had the AI units running lengthwise on the tank for majority of the time I had two units. Per the claims of the graph attached from the AI website, I would need 2 units and you would need 6 to achieve 160 PAR or better at the sand bed for 99% of my tank and 95% of yours.

I could go on and on but I think it would be beating a dead horse. My bottom line can be summed up in a simple analogy.

If I went to a car dealership and said, "I have a boat weighing 8000 pounds that needs towing and I'm looking for a truck to tow it."
Then, the dealership sells me a truck and they say, "This truck can tow it no problem." They even show me nice documents saying how much it can tow and its massive engine power. I bring the truck home and I can't even get the boat out of the driveway. I go back to the dealership to complain and they tell me, "If you buy another truck and daisy chain them together you could then tow the boat for sure."

People need to know when a manufacturer is not living up to its claims. I take every opportunity to do so. I have no doubt if you throw enough of these units on any given tank you can grow any coral. I never claimed to be starting a referendum on the viability of LED's to grow things. I've said that you <u>can't using AI's claims of performance.</u>

You can prove me wrong by running six units on your tank (72"x36"x27") and get good growth and color. This would put their performance claims to the test. Anything else is you buying multiple trucks to tow your boat then tell people how great the truck is.

You can blame individuals tank parameters or white to blue ratios all you want. It's irrelevant if the product can't perform like advertised.

Since I was tricked and now invested, I added a third unit two weeks ago in a last ditch effort to have great growth and color without the drawbacks of MH. I really want these to work for me. After being into my lights for $1,500 myself, I want nothing but a good outcome.

Oh, and Dave, as for pictures of my tank to illustrate a lack of growth. To use another analogy, if I claimed my wife looked just like Cameron Diaz people would want pics for proof. Not so much the case if I claimed my wife looked like Roseanne Barr. Just saying.
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[mvm]

 

[seth the wine guy]

Thanks for helping to prove my point Matt. You are exceeding the number of units needed according to AI's claims. You have a 93 cube yes, (30x30x24) and two units on it?

 

[mvm]

Man, not sure what your vendetta against AI's is. I bought 2 from the beginning. I knew that one would not be enough. If you read any post that pertained to the coverage of one fixture, you'd know that. I'm sorry that AI apparently gave you bad advise, but if any reef related company was held liable for bad advise, few would survive....

Edit: And you said you wanted pics, not opinions.....

 

[seth the wine guy]

MvM;700612 wrote: Man, not sure what your vendetta against AI's is. I bought 2 from the beginning. I knew that one would not be enough. If you read any post that pertained to the coverage of one fixture, you'd know that. I'm sorry that AI apparently gave you bad advise, but if any reef related company was held liable for bad advise, few would survive....

Edit: And you said you wanted pics, not opinions.....

http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63038">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63038</a>

Uh yeah. Ok. Coming from the person who posted this?

 

[ripped tide]

Interesting bit. When i was Deciding upon new lighting for my tank (20lx20wx30h) I was looking at the sol, and after personal speculation, i decided that i thought that their claims were a little far fetched. I ended up going with the eco-ray 112D and won't look back until everything melts. I have great growth and i love the way the light looks. FIN.

 

[mvm]

Seth The Wine Guy;700614 wrote: http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63038">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63038</a>

Uh yeah. Ok. Coming from the person who posted this?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=][B]Seth The Wine Guy;699605 wrote:[/B] I would love to hear your take on things. Why don't you pile on in my AI thread and we send it to AI corp[/QUOTE]
I did not respond to your "pile on" request because I felt that my poor results were on me. In a matter of weeks, I've improved water quality and lighting intensity. See this post, too:
[IMG]http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63279">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=63279</a>

 

[ripped tide]

Seth, I have noticed that you have commentated against AI in more than one thread. I noticed that that you made comments about putting the product back in the package and sending it back and purchasing good meal halides. I am happy with my LED purchase. I will say that I didn't purchase the trendy brand. I have had LEDs since 5/11 and have seen HUGE results in comparison to my older 400w MH. I wouldn't loose faith, I would just step back when buying and see what really works. 1wt 40degree. I wouldn't look back.

If i ever turn my 210 into a reef, it'll be t5s or LEDS... Halides are burning out.

 

[seth the wine guy]

Ripped Tide;700619 wrote: Seth, I have noticed that you have commentated against AI in more than one thread. I noticed that that you made comments about putting the product back in the package and sending it back and purchasing good meal halides. I am happy with my LED purchase. I will say that I didn't purchase the trendy brand. I have had LEDs since 5/11 and have seen HUGE results in comparison to my older 400w MH. I wouldn't loose faith, I would just step back when buying and see what really works. 1wt 40degree. I wouldn't look back.

If i ever turn my 210 into a reef, it'll be t5s or LEDS... Halides are burning out.

I guess I'm not being very clear about my motives and for that I apologize. I'm on a crusade against false manufacturer claims. Not LED's. (I just bought another darn unit two weeks ago!)

I don't think I can add anymore on this topic. I could probably spend a few hours on it but I've said my peace. When people do a search or talk to a friend about AI's as a possible purchase my commentary may have some influence or impact. Whether it be word of mouth, local forum, or Google search. That's all I look to do in ANYTHING I do. Make an impact or if you want to put it all mushy like, a difference.

OUT

 

[mvm]

So, if a car manufacturer says that a car gets 30 mpg, but you floor it every time you see a green light and get less than advertised, you sue or start a "crusade?"
As consumers, we're responsible for due diligence. Are there any tunze owners filing suits for their apparent overstating of flow rates? Doubtful......

 

[ripped tide]

I understand where you are going... BUT... you bought ANOTHER AI sol. You fell victim to the cause that you are fighting against. I think that you are a smart guy and that you could build your own LED set up. In hindsight, would you build your own, or buy your own?

 

[acroholic]

Seth The Wine Guy;700593 wrote: Dialog to this thread is a continuation from another thread that went off topic which can be found here. http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?p=700302#post700302">http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?p=700302#post700302</a>

Dave, (Acroholic) my comment directed to you in the above thread was meant in playful banter. Nothing more. In person it would have been accompanied by a chuckle and a couple elbow pumps to your ribs. Sorry you took it the wrong way.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you phrased it the wrong way, because it did not come across as good natured kidding. The opposite, actually. Funny how intentions have a way of doing that on the typed page. I had enough respect for you to look at and address your claims, but you dissed my entire post as simple defense of a purchase because I hold a different opinion than you.

[QUOTE=][B]Seth The Wine Guy;700593 wrote:[/B] My entire issue or "beef" (as you would put it) with AI is with the fact their claims are FALSE! [/QUOTE]

You have a major vendetta against AI, and you have bashed them at every opportunity on this website. You may have had issues, but others have not, and have nice looking SPS reef tanks using AI modules. As bad as your experience has been, I would have bailed, sold my two units, and gotten into something I liked long ago. You purchased a third unit of a product that you hate, all the while bad mouthing them any time the topic comes up. $300 or so loss on a couple of light fixtures is a drop in the bucket in this hobby. Move on and be happy.

[QUOTE=][B]Seth The Wine Guy;700593 wrote:[/B] Oh, and Dave, as for pictures of my tank to illustrate a lack of growth. To use another analogy, if I claimed my wife looked just like Cameron Diaz people would want pics for proof. Not so much the case if I claimed my wife looked like Roseanne Barr. Just saying.[/QUOTE]

If all you are going to do is complain that these LEDs do not work, then some pictures to document these claims are in order just as much as they are from someone that claims they do work.

I have no problem providing documentation to support my claims. Here are some simple non-flash pics from my 300 tank taken with a cheapo digital camera 1/2 hour ago. Corals are brighter in person. Intensities on these AI Sols may not have meaning for you, but higher white levels are very relevant for bringing out color in SPS from the results I have gotten. Not a brown acropora in the bunch any more. Got a bit of cyano on the bare rocks, but I took these quickly.
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[falos]

Tank looks nice Dave jive Ben running air sol blue for 3 months now and haven't had eny problems with it after I quit trying to make the spectrum to blue and ramped the whites up using the settings you posted a month or so ago . That sed there can be guns of reasons for spa to Brown out a lot are testable sum are not with out a spectral analysis. Maine ones I can thank of is floride and amonium build up. But Seth have you tried to balance your lights out running w/b at the same ratio

 

[acroholic]

falos;700709 wrote: Tank looks nice Dave jive Ben running air sol blue for 3 months now and haven't had eny problems with it after I quit trying to make the spectrum to blue and ramped the whites up using the settings you posted a month or so ago . That sed there can be guns of reasons for spa to Brown out a lot are testable sum are not with out a spectral analysis. Maine ones I can thank of is floride and amonium build up. But Seth have you tried to balance your lights out running w/b at the same ratio

Thanks very much. Glad to help. Ramping up the white intensity setting was the key for me. I don't think it is having a blue bias in the intensity settings that is the issue, but doing it at the expense of the white. Softies and LPS are fine at 40/70/70 or the like, but it destroyed the color of my SPS.

When I made the connection about the low white intensity settings and brown corals, my tank was at a point where I had lost most of my large acropora colonies, and just had my montis and a couple other small SPS that had not died in my system crash, but were brown. I figured I didn't have much to lose at this point by mimicing those I had seen with nice looking Sol Blue SPS tanks, which were running a high equal intensity schedule for a large chunk of the photoperiod.

This tank thread from RC was one of the inspirations:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2029329">http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2029329</a>

My large montipora colonies that survived my crash were the first to respond. The Tyree Sunset was the slowest, but it gets better every week. SPS corals placed in my tank now don't turn brown, but keep their color. Any coral can change color r/t the lighting they are under, but my SPS are not brown any more from lack of white light, and they are growing.

Also, since I have gone to the higher intensity lighting schedule, I have noticed several nubs of my former SPS colonies starting to color up and grow again. Surprised the heck out of me because I didn't think any of them were still alive. These are remainders from months back when I broke the dead colonies off the reef structure.

 

[ripped tide]

falos;700709 wrote: Tank looks nice Dave jive Ben running air sol blue for 3 months now and haven't had eny problems with it after I quit trying to make the spectrum to blue and ramped the whites up using the settings you posted a month or so ago . That sed there can be guns of reasons for spa to Brown out a lot are testable sum are not with out a spectral analysis. Maine ones I can thank of is floride and amonium build up. But Seth have you tried to balance your lights out running w/b at the same ratio

Sweet baby Jesus! Spell check is free folks....

 

[falos]

So is troling forums droid keyboard and fingers like brats don't mix .

Dave how much for 10 min alone with the 300 and a bone cutter

 

[seth the wine guy]

Acroholic;700735 wrote: Ramping up the white intensity setting was the key for me.

Since having a conversation with you about this at the meeting a couple months ago I've been running equal ratios. If someone has success with something I want to know how and why, so I might duplicate it.

When I posted my thread (and other threads) outlining my experience and difficulties I tried providing what optics I was using, how high off the water the units were, dimensions of the tank, PAR measurements, tank params, etc, etc.

I found a great lacking of anyone sharing any real info. They would chime in and say, "I love mine!" or "Mine bleached all my corals!". I would often ask those who were having a good experience what they were doing with the lights, and to please share more information. It was like pulling teeth after that. I would get incomplete responses or none at all. One person was just plain smarmy. (I need to learn how to use the ignore button on here) I would then dismiss them as a credible source of testimony.

As far as buying another unit... I listened to the results reported by others that were having success using more units than AI said were needed. I'm not going to slit my own throat (or wallet) to prove a point. (Although I'm not above it) I was too far invested already and it was apparent that one more unit could quite possibly solve my ills. If it does, I'll say as much.

I want to be more than a frag farmer. I really do. (I won't buy colonies because I love to see things grow and evolve.) I thought for sure I would have a presentable tank by years end. And I don't. I really tried to spare no expense when putting this tank together to do it right. I was returning to the hobby after 15 years and everything had changed. I remember you generally got what you paid for though. I relied heavily on others advice here. Dave, you being one. I am absolutely thrilled with every other product and manufacturer for my build. But, they all have track records and a proven history, or people can say without question to buy bigger or more than the manufacturer's claims. (Like many skimmers for example)

Sorry again Dave, I'm accustom to my circle of friends. We have a really good time giving each other a hard time and not everyone else shares our humor.

ps As for your pictures, thanks. I'm happy with my color too now but you and I both know you GREW those with MH. I'll post some when I have the time.

 

[seth the wine guy]

And to quantify my happiness with color. It's better on my SPS than it was but I still think SPS looks better under MH and LPS and softies under LED

 

[acroholic]

Seth The Wine Guy;700801 wrote:
ps As for your pictures, thanks. I'm happy with my color too now but you and I both know you GREW those with MH. I'll post some when I have the time.

Yes, but what is your point? This whole discussion is current coloration/growth under LEDs, not how corals were originally grown. Before LEDs, what other light would anyone have had but halides or T5s? You make it sound like since these corals initially grew under halides, this somehow undermines what I have been posting about here, which it doesn't. I didn't put Sol Blues on my tank until this year, and I never communicated anything to the contrary. 95% of the SPS now in my tank are new post-crash except the three large monti colonies and two other small ones that lived, and they all have color and are growing under AI Sol Blues.

I experienced the same browning you did with low white settings, but when I followed the example I saw in colorful AI SPS tanks and went to higher white intensity settings, the color of my surviving SPS returned, the color of new SPS stayed, and growth ensued. Frag plugs are encrusting, branches are getting longer, and my surviving colonies are colored up and growing as well.

Are LEDs better than Halides or T5s? I'm not debating that. I am only discussing how I now have SPS coloration and growth under AI Sol Blues and how I got it, whereas you have been constantly posting how they don't work, how bad your SPS corals look under them, how AI's manufacturer claims are false, and bad mouthing AI and their product at every opportunity.

 

[thanhreef]

09/07/2011: I started hanging AI over tank (36x18x25) after totally broke down

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I just did a quick snap of some corals just about 2 months under 2 AI LED. For SPS, I am running 50W/75B/75RB for 4 hours. I'd probably tune up 75/75/75 or 75/80/100 or low the lighting rack.

Dave gave me a frag a long time ago. It's one of my favorite. When the white lights turn off, its color is so bright

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Pink Lemonade

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BN

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Setosa and behind is Season Greeting

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Forest Fire

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Shortcake: it was completely brown, now color is coming back a bit

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and fish is great color...hihi j/k

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