HELP - fish dying / diagnosis needed

[maelstrom79]

160 gallon system (120 tall plus 40 breeder)

The parameters:

Salinity - 1.025
Temp - 80 degrees Fahrenheit
PH - 8.30 (Hanna checker)
Ammonia - 0 (Red Sea)
Nitrite - 0 to 0.05 ( Red Sea / point of debate - coloration is right on that line but ESTABLISHED tank)
Nitrate - .2 ppm (Red Sea pro nitrate, I dose NO3 POX)
Alk - 1.7 - 2.8 (in the middle / basic Red Sea test / can do a sea chem if needed)

Last water change - yesterday, 25 gallons, 1.025 reef crystals
I can't find one of the pieces for my sea chem mag test, but I can test calcium if needed.

Back story:

I've had most of my fish for over a year. Current stock was a yellow anthias, two black ocellaris clownfish, one chromis, one mandarin goby, blue spotted watchman goby, emerald crab (somewhere), red blood shrimp, starfish. Also, standard cleaner crew plus one mexican turbo. We moved at the end of June of this year. I change 25 gallons weekly in my tank and run GfO and carbon and a skimmer.

I added a rainbow BTA anemone which I purchased at the annual ARC meeting this year. He is doing fine. I made three new introductions (in order, purchased over a few weeks) - a fairy wrasse, a powder blue tang, and a cleaner shrimp (for the tang). All of them were purchased from SEA and were quarantined per SEA's policy.

The first to go was the PBT which lasted almost four weeks (died 10/4). The anthias followed three days later. Things were quiet up until last Monday (1 week ago) when our mandarin disappeared and we haven't seen him since. I assume he passed. Today, the wrasse died. He was eating well yesterday and after the first two deaths I've been adding garlic guard and vitality to my mysis (I also feed flakes, all fish are fed every other day). I don't know what is wrong and I'm not a fish doctor! The other fish are very active and healthy eaters.

General symptoms: lethargy, followed by resting on the bottom (tang some, anthias a lot (he hid in the rocks), wrasse sporadically); some erratic swimming (PBT only); Rapid breathing (anthias especially); loss of color (tang then anthias, didn't lose any color with the wrasse).

I haven't seen any signs of ich (white spots ), no bulging eyes or stomach, no damaged scales that I can tell. All fish that passed away died with their gills fully extended, anthias's appeared very red although no blood. I have pics of the PBT and wrasse I can upload for reference.

Please help me diagnose this because these losses are adding up and upsetting me greatly :sick:
Thanks for your help!!

 

[porpoiseaquatics]

Have you dosed anything? Has the house been sprayed by any pest control company? Any other changes in the house? How often do you change your GFO?

 

[maelstrom79]

Pictures of the PBT:
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[maelstrom79]

Porpoise, I haven't dosed anything other than two part (seachem reef fusion one and two) and NO3 POX. The two part is maybe once a week. I do not allow any pesticides to be sprayed in the house and no scent Warmers/plug ins near the tank. I change my gfo every two weeks, and carbon more often it seems. I use a BRS dual reactor for that. No changes in the house or construction, no tools dropped in the tank.

 

[maelstrom79]

Another PBT pic:
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[maelstrom79]

Wrasse picture:
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[maelstrom79]

Wrasse pic 2
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[maelstrom79]

I have more but it is a bear getting these off my ipad.
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[porpoiseaquatics]

Based on the pics and your description of the gills....I'm going to go with Oodinium and/or Brooklynella but I'm leaning more toward the first. Both can kill quickly with little or no sign of ailment. The reason I'm leaning more toward Oodinium is it can cause a white mucus to appear and it looks like there might be some in a couple of the pics.

JennM is very good at diagnosing fish illnesses....you may want to contact her and get her opinion.

 

[maelstrom79]

Sounds reasonable. What's the best way to treat oodinium or brook? Freshwater dips plus ??

 

[camellia]

I'm sorry for your loss.
When I'm considering a fish purchase I read about them as much as possible. One thing I caught was that you feed your fish every other day. Wrasse and many other fish need to be fed 2 to 3 times a day.
I just wanted to add this for future care of any Wrasse you may purchase. I'm in no way insinuating this killed your fish.
My knowledge is very limited with fish sickness so I'll exit now.
I hope things get better.

 

[tonymission]

Real sad to see that... Horrible feeling I know. Sorry for your losses

Is your alk really that low or am I misinterpreting the number somehow?

 

[ringo®]

tonymission;994632 wrote: Real sad to see that... Horrible feeling I know. Sorry for your losses

Is your alk really that low or am I misinterpreting the number somehow?

I would guess that it's a Meq/L reading. If so, that's somewhere between low 5's and high 7's dkh.

 

[jennm]

Wow, that's unfortunate All dying over the course of several days, yes?

The clowns are still alive and healthy in appearance?

I'm not leaning toward Brooklynella if the clowns are still fine - they are the most prone to it and usually are the first to go when that is present.

The Mandarin Dragonet (it's not a goby - sorry - pet peeve of mine that the industry deliberately misidentifies this creature) - he's MIA, no body found, right? Have you checked your overflow(s), they can be night-time jumpers.

Mandarins are also very disease-resistant, most starve to death instead of becoming sick, so that is an odd twist on your situation, I've seen them do just fine even when exposed to various illnesses.

You can rule out the inverts as a cause.

So the newest fishes into the tank were the Tang and the Wrasse, right? Both can potentially have their issues. Have you spoken to the dealer you bought them from? I know you said they were quarantined at the shop but do you also quarantine?

Quarantining and individual fish at the hobbyist level is still your best line of defense, even with batch quarantining at the dealer level. Even at that, nothing is 100% foolproof.

It's hard to tell from the pictures - I can see the small inset photos but for some reason they won't open when I click on them (just the spinning beach ball of death on the screen).

How are the remaining fish doing?

I'm not sure if it's a "water" issue or a "sick" issue. Usually when there's a toxin of some sort, the shrimp would be the first to go. Corals may or may not, depending on what it is.

When it's a sick issue, the corals/inverts will be unaffected, but the fish will show symptoms.

(I'm kind of thinking out loud here, going through the process...)

How long from the onset of symptoms, until death? Brooklynella can (but doesn't always) kill within hours but the fact that the clowns are still OK, flies in the face of conventional wisdom on that one.

I'd question the presence of nitrite in your water if it's an established tank and fatalities are removed promptly.

Could your food be spoiled?

That wouldn't account for the Mandarin but that being MIA might be an unhappy coincidence...

Jenn

 

[maelstrom79]

Thanks for everyone's concern and advice! I really appreciate it! The alkalinity is Meq/L , the test kit I've had for a while (2 years?) so I'm concerned it's not as accurate as it could be. I can run a test with my sea chem but I don't think ALK is at the heart of the fish death problem because the rest of the fish look great and the corals are fine.

I also am religious about carbon dosing, about changing out my dual BRS carbon/gfo reactor, and water changes religiously EVERY week at 25 gallons a week in my big tank and 5 gallons in my nano. The fish are not swimming in poop - I vacuum the bottom and scrub the rocks too as needed! My water is crystal clear and my head and test results tell me this isn't a water issue (especially with no invert deaths).

Jenn, do you think that oodinium is a possibility as suggested earlier in the thread? The PBT (tang) passed on 10/4 and the anthias passed on 10/7. The mandarin disappeared last week and the wrasse passed yesterday - almost a month since the anthias passed! I will check the overflows - frankly, my pod population isn't where I want it (even with the section of my sump that is sectioned off as a dedicated fuge with separate drain) and while I supplement with extra purchased pods and tried to feed the mandarin cyclopeeze he never took to frozen food. I think he may not have gotten enough food despite my best attempts and he is still MIA today - he was always very active and easy to find on my rocks. There is just too much time between the fish deaths which makes me wonder if brook (or an equivalent) is even a possibility based on other brook threads I've read on the boards here at ARC. I've read it hits fast and hits hard and my clowns are fine and eating like horses - pigs really! Chromis and goby are the same way. Shrimp are eating well and the starfish is fat and happy.

I do not quarantine at my house (yes, I know about this and I need to do so) - I've always had good experience purchasing from a few select LOCAL dealers (never through the net). I've thought about setting up a quarantine tank but worry about matching parameters with my big tank. The newest fish were the tang and the wrasse and both were eating at the store and I had the tang almost a month and the wrasse for almost two months! I feel like the tang declined (b/c PBT's are tricky) and whatever he got spread. I can email the pictures to anyone interested in helping diagnose this!

The spoiled food is an interesting question but I keep it frozen and bought it frozen from local stores and thaw cubes individually. My experience with PE Mysis is that it's always somewhat smelly - how would you tell if it had spoiled completely? Coloration?

Thank you everyone for your continued help!!!

 

[maelstrom79]

I also occasionally dose microbacter (bright well aquatics), but that is sporadic due to carbon dosing. Just to eliminate ammonia/nitrite follow up questions. Also , no wear on any fins, no damaged coral, or rapid breathing for any of the other fish. No scale damage. I do not run UV, don't have one (yet!).

I had the mandarin at least two years. He was my favorite

PS -&gt; phosphates are zero. Low range Hanna checker.

 

[jennm]

It's odd to have deaths spread out so much. Was the onset sudden?

I couldn't see much in the pictures because larger versions wouldn't open for me. Can you describe physical symptoms? (Slime, spots... etc.)

There are parameters that are vital to life: Temp, SG, pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

The other stuff (as it pertains to FISH) - Alk, CA, MG, PO4 - are not life and death for them (well maybe if they are ridiculously out of whack).

How are your temp and SG measured, and have you tried comparing them (ie if you use a digital thermometer, have you tried a good old glass thermometer, and if you use a refractometer, when was it calibrated last?)

And yeah, Mysis is kind of smelly but when it's bad it's grossly stinky.

Jenn

 

[brandonmason]

Just noticed you are running gfo. Just read this about NO3POX

When using NO3O4-X Biological Nitrate and Phosphate Reducer, test nitrate and phosphate with a high resolution test kits such as Red Sea*Nitrate Pro*and*Phosphate Procolormetric comparator Test Kits. Purchase the Red SeaAlgae Control Multi Test Kit*and SAVE!

NOTE:*Efficient protein skimming is essential to provide the necessary oxygenation of the aquarium and to remove bacterial flocks from the water.

NO3O4-X should not be used in conjunction with phosphate removers.

Downloadable*NO3O4-X Biological Nitrate and Phosphate Reducer Manual PDF, and*Reef Care Program - FAQ PDF.
(Both require Adobe Acrobat Reader 4.0 or later -*get it here for free)

Not sure that it is related but could lead to a source