Go Back   Home > Atlanta Reef Club Forums > Reef Discussion
Register / Join the ARC Community Chat Gallery MemberMap Forums Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Visit all of our sponsors


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 12-15-2011, 1:57 PM   #1
grouper therapy grouper therapy is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,093
City: Dallas
State: GA
Occupation: CUSTOM STAND AND CABINET MAKER
Are coral reefs really stabile?

Attached is an article containing some research information that might change your idea of how stable your system has to be in regards Temp and salinity swings

.http://www.reefland.com/articles/rho...-moving-target

I would like to get your take on it after reading the article.

Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 2:06 PM   #2
Rodasphoto Rodasphoto is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 327
City: Athens
State: GA
Occupation: High School Science Teacher
Other Interests: Photography, DIYing
After skimming it I would have to agree that the reef environment changes just like seasons change. But I don't think temperature/salinity change in one hour, or day in the wild as fast as it can in lets say in my 29 gal biocube.

Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 2:19 PM   #3
grouper therapy grouper therapy is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,093
City: Dallas
State: GA
Occupation: CUSTOM STAND AND CABINET MAKER
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodasphoto View Post
After skimming it I would have to agree that the reef environment changes just like seasons change. But I don't think temperature/salinity change in one hour, or day in the wild as fast as it can in lets say in my 29 gal biocube.
If you read the entire article you will note a chart showing hourly changes in temperature on a reef in Indonesia.

Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 4:38 PM   #4
Jaycen B. Jaycen B. is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 757
City: Dallas
State: GA
Occupation: CRAFTSMAN
Other Interests: Botany
Nice Dave, thanks for posting that.

Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 4:46 PM   #5
peachyreef peachyreef is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 251
City: Evans
State: GA
Occupation: Zoology student
Other Interests: SCUBA, painting, and travel
It was an okay article. It would have been more telling if they had charted growth or decay rates of corals along with mapping environmental conditions, that would have been cool imo. Also, The greatest swing in temperatures in Fig two was 8 degrees F, that is about the maximum you want to let your temperature swing in a reef tank. Many tanks go through that kind of temperature fluctuation, especially in summer. But that swing of 17 degrees in the tide pool was crazy!!
Quote:
Obviously, expensive controllers and chillers are by and large unnecessary, advertising hype to the contrary.
I totally disagree with this!!!! It kind of went against what the data showed. Sure you saw fluctuation but, the locations changed; such as the tide pool, lagoons, and deep water reefs. The environment changed and the corals within these different environments did as well. I think this article just proves that different animals are suited to different environments and conditions, and that sometimes as hobbyist we forget that. By forgetting I mean we put corals from this region and that region and we mix the fish from various places and we all expect them to react the same in the aquarium. That was my take away. Haha bring on the critics!

Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 5:21 PM   #6
grouper therapy grouper therapy is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,093
City: Dallas
State: GA
Occupation: CUSTOM STAND AND CABINET MAKER
I will not critize but I will discuss your post

Quote:
Originally Posted by peachyreef View Post
lon Also, The greatest swing in temperatures in Fig two was 8 degrees F, that is about the maximum you want to let your temperature swing in a reef tank. Why? But that swing of 17 degrees in the tide pool was crazy!! I totally disagree with this!!!! Why?It kind of went against what the data showed. How so? Sure you saw fluctuation but, the locations changed; such as the tide pool, lagoons, and deep water reefs. The environment changed and the corals within these different environments did as well. I'm pretty sure many of the same corals overlapped into multiple environments

Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 5:32 PM   #7
Todd_Washowich Todd_Washowich is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Age: 52
Posts: 136
City: Woodstock
State: GA
Occupation: Construction Manager for Bed Bath & Beyond
Other Interests: Diving, Steelers and Golf
I agree with the article... Good find... everyone is so into tweaking their tank.. just sit back and watch it for a while.. Quit fiddling around.. and just enjoy the dang thing.. temperature changes.... no harm...if they rise 20 degrees.. then worry

Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 6:00 PM   #8
Jaycen B. Jaycen B. is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 757
City: Dallas
State: GA
Occupation: CRAFTSMAN
Other Interests: Botany
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd_Washowich View Post
I agree with the article... Good find... everyone is so into tweaking their tank.. just sit back and watch it for a while.. Quit fiddling around.. and just enjoy the dang thing.. temperature changes.... no harm...if they rise 20 degrees.. then worry
Quote of the day.

Last edited by Jaycen B.; 12-15-2011 at 6:06 PM.

Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 6:29 PM   #9
Jaycen B. Jaycen B. is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 757
City: Dallas
State: GA
Occupation: CRAFTSMAN
Other Interests: Botany
I had more to add!

Edit:

Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 8:53 PM   #10
Jaycen B. Jaycen B. is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 757
City: Dallas
State: GA
Occupation: CRAFTSMAN
Other Interests: Botany
I guess ARC admin is not going to add it back I'll retype later.

Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2011, 9:47 PM   #11
Seth The Wine Guy Seth The Wine Guy is offline
ARC BoD

ARC Member
 
Seth The Wine Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,684
City: Cumming
State: GA
Occupation: Home improvement and roofing contractor
Other Interests: Wine, food, skiing, fly fishing, deep sea fishing, Colorado
Quote:
Originally Posted by grouper therapy View Post
Attached is an article containing some research information that might change your idea of how stable your system has to be in regards Temp and salinity swings

I would like to get your take on it after reading the article.
While the article was interesting, I donít find it compelling or even relevant. It was very broad in it's evaluation of environmental variables for a "reef". What constitutes a "reef" in this article? We have members here with GSP, leather coral, and mushrooms in their tank. Is it a reef? Yes. Does it have the same environmental requirements of an Acro or NPS tank? No way. All are reefs though. The author also quotes surface temps. Living many years in Hawaii and swimming for hours on end in reefs, I can tell you surface temp means NOTHING! The formations of volcanic shelves and structures would create strange flows that would leave your bottom half chilly and top half balmy.

Many of us try and keep a variety of corals from a wide diversity of origins in the same tank. (Guilty) THAT's why consistency is paramount for many of us to achieve success. The only way such a diversity of species with different needs can be successfully kept and propagated is through a lack of environmental variances.

This hobby is built entirely around monkey see monkey do. We have not come to this point in the hobby with the collective experience that wide variables and extremes are good for our tank. Would we not all agree that CONSISTENCY means more for a successful reef than hitting a target number here and there?

I think the author may have some good points valid to a real reef ecosystem. I think there is a huge lack of information or variables taken into consideration to apply to our captive reefs. I donít have enough time or desire to poke all the holes he has left open.
Iím no expert by ANY stretch in this hobby but this article is anecdotal at best. Even to a laymen like me.
__________________
"It's not the size of the tank that matters, it's what you do with it."

Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 12:57 AM   #12
peachyreef peachyreef is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 251
City: Evans
State: GA
Occupation: Zoology student
Other Interests: SCUBA, painting, and travel
Quote:
Originally Posted by grouper therapy View Post
I will not critize but I will discuss your post
8 degrees is around the max we would like it to fluctuate based on experience and what the books tell us. I guess the article brings that into question, but not accurately imo, because the studies had different locations, depth, currents, and creatures. We set the limit temp swing at 8 to accomidate and limit the stress level on a variety of animals. But that depends on what species we are comparing and who is talking.

I disagreed with the statement that said we did not need heating and chilling technology, because it was just plain dumb. You cant say that cold-water species such as the Catalina goby or the blue spotted jawfish would do just as well with temp swings of 20 degrees. Also, i don't believe all species are able to cope with that kind of stress on a daily basis. Maybe this artilce would have been true if it presented a specific biotype and compared it to an aquarium biotype but it did not. It was incomplete science in my opinion.

you correct in assuming many species overlap however there are many endimic species in the ocean, ones that can handle and need extremes and others that do not. Species that live in tide pools will be different than those that live in deep water. Not to mention many species just live in certain parts of the world. (ex. the lion fish, until recently) perhaps the ones that are able to spread into other biotypes are hardier as well? I dont know enough to prove that, and the author didn't convince me of much.

Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 1:07 AM   #13
Smoothie Smoothie is offline
Atlanta Reef Club Member
ARC Member
 
Smoothie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,154
City: Valdosta
State: GA
Occupation: Restaurant GM
Other Interests: Resto work
I noticed a change every few min to an hour while snorkelling the reef in Culebra for Thanksgiving. Big temp swings and the reef was on its way on the up and up. Coral and their algaes may be adapting and those may be the guys reproducing the reef. Dunno really but myself and the locals were pretty darned stoked. And by darned I mean this is a family site
__________________
I shall pass through this world but once. Any good therefore that I can do or any kindness that I can show to any human being let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it for I shall not pass this way again

Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 9:07 AM   #14
grouper therapy grouper therapy is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,093
City: Dallas
State: GA
Occupation: CUSTOM STAND AND CABINET MAKER
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth The Wine Guy View Post
While the article was interesting, I donít find it compelling or even relevant. It was very broad in it's evaluation of environmental variables for a "reef". What constitutes a "reef" in this article? We have members here with GSP, leather coral, and mushrooms in their tank. Is it a reef? Yes. Does it have the same environmental requirements of an Acro or NPS tank? No way. All are reefs though. The author also quotes surface temps. Living many years in Hawaii and swimming for hours on end in reefs, I can tell you surface temp means NOTHING! The formations of volcanic shelves and structures would create strange flows that would leave your bottom half chilly and top half balmy. Most of the surface temps that was measured is not the actual surface of the water it is a few feet below the surface.

Many of us try and keep a variety of corals from a wide diversity of origins in the same tank. (Guilty) THAT's why consistency is paramount for many of us to achieve success. The only way such a diversity of species with different needs can be successfully kept and propagated is through a lack of environmental variances. By your own admission corals come from different regions with different parameters yet they survive in a tank with set parameters that are different than what they originated from.

This hobby is built entirely around monkey see monkey do. We have not come to this point in the hobby with the collective experience that wide variables and extremes are good for our tank. That is what is in question here to me . What is the definition of wide and extreme.
Would we not all agree that CONSISTENCY means more for a successful reef than hitting a target number here and there? No,

I think the author may have some good points valid to a real reef ecosystem. I think there is a huge lack of information or variables taken into consideration to apply to our captive reefs. I donít have enough time or desire to poke all the holes he has left open.
Iím no expert by ANY stretch in this hobby but this article is anecdotal at best. Even to a laymen like me
. But yet we accept monkey see, monkey do? I think we could apply this at the hobbyist level as well.
One other thing I'm pretty sure he did not perform these studies. They data was obtained from researchers.

Edit: response
Quote:
Originally Posted by peachyreef View Post
8 degrees is around the max we would like it to fluctuate based on experience and what the books tell us. Could you please reference that book I guess the article brings that into question, but not accurately imo, because the studies had different locations, depth, currents, and creatures. We set the limit temp swing at 8 to accomidate and limit the stress level on a variety of animals. But that depends on what species we are comparing and who is talking.

I disagreed with the statement that said we did not need heating and chilling technology, because it was just plain dumb. You cant say that cold-water species such as the Catalina goby or the blue spotted jawfish would do just as well with temp swings of 20 degrees. I think you read more into his statement than what I did . I think he was referencing the method of sale of this equipment by some stating a 2 degree temp swing is detrimental Also, i don't believe all species are able to cope with that kind of stress on a daily basis. Maybe this artilce would have been true if it presented a specific biotype and compared it to an aquarium biotype but it did not. It was incomplete science in my opinion. Much like our anecdotal evidence presented by most in the hobby.

you correct in assuming( not an assumption)many species overlap however there are many endimic species in the ocean, ones that can handle and need extremes and others that do not. Species that live in tide pools will be different than those that live in deep water. Not to mention many species just live in certain parts of the world. (ex. the lion fish, until recently) perhaps the ones that are able to spread into other biotypes are hardier as well? I dont know enough to prove that, and the author didn't convince me of much. I don't think that was his intent.

Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 9:38 AM   #15
grouper therapy grouper therapy is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,093
City: Dallas
State: GA
Occupation: CUSTOM STAND AND CABINET MAKER
I think you guys actually reinforced what the data provided revealed . It did not say that corals from one region would survive in another region. It provided evidence that most corals from those different regions all under went much larger variances in temp and salinity than we have been told that they could survive in or out of our tanks.

Last edited by grouper therapy; 12-16-2011 at 9:45 AM.

Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 9:38 AM   #16
slowjazz slowjazz is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 149
City: woodstock
State: GA
Quote:
Originally Posted by peachyreef View Post
It was an okay article. It would have been more telling if they had charted growth or decay rates of corals along with mapping environmental conditions, that would have been cool imo. Also, The greatest swing in temperatures in Fig two was 8 degrees F, that is about the maximum you want to let your temperature swing in a reef tank. Many tanks go through that kind of temperature fluctuation, especially in summer. But that swing of 17 degrees in the tide pool was crazy!! I totally disagree with this!!!! It kind of went against what the data showed. Sure you saw fluctuation but, the locations changed; such as the tide pool, lagoons, and deep water reefs. The environment changed and the corals within these different environments did as well. I think this article just proves that different animals are suited to different environments and conditions, and that sometimes as hobbyist we forget that. By forgetting I mean we put corals from this region and that region and we mix the fish from various places and we all expect them to react the same in the aquarium. That was my take away. Haha bring on the critics!

I also agree. Plus I think the problems we have are from:
1) Not giving the coral/fish enough time to adapt to the tank. In the wild we are talking years of growth, die off ...ect I see people change their display monthly by swaping from tank to tank.
also.. Some people change tank sizes and even equipment pretty quickly.

2) Making things too perfect. In the wild things are not perfect. Nature has a fix for just about everything. Our technology is making it to the point where the coral/fish live in a bubble. One 'natural' thing happens and it kills everything because they adapted to the perfect tank.

Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 9:49 AM   #17
grouper therapy grouper therapy is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,093
City: Dallas
State: GA
Occupation: CUSTOM STAND AND CABINET MAKER
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth The Wine Guy View Post
Many of us try and keep a variety of corals from a wide diversity of origins in the same tank. (Guilty) THAT's why consistency is paramount for many of us to achieve success. The only way such a diversity of species with different needs can be successfully kept and propagated is through a lack of environmental variances.
T


I find those contradict one another . Please explain.

Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 10:20 AM   #18
grouper therapy grouper therapy is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,093
City: Dallas
State: GA
Occupation: CUSTOM STAND AND CABINET MAKER
Not picking on you Seth. ok I am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth The Wine Guy View Post
While the article was interesting, I donít find it compelling or even relevant. It was very broad in it's evaluation of environmental variables for a "reef". I thought it was exact . Temp and salinity was all he was discussingWhat constitutes a "reef" in this article? Some 1000 areas that were measured that had corals growing in saltwater. We have members here with GSP, leather coral, and mushrooms in their tank. Is it a reef? Yes. Does it have the same environmental requirements of an Acro or NPS tank? No way. All are reefs though. The author also quotes surface temps. Living many years in Hawaii and swimming for hours on end in reefs, I can tell you surface temp means NOTHING! The formations of volcanic shelves and structures would create strange flows that would leave your bottom half chilly and top half balmy. He actual mentions thermoclines and their effects on salinity

Many of us try and keep a variety of corals from a wide diversity of origins in the same tank. (Guilty) THAT's why consistency is paramount for many of us to achieve success. The only way such a diversity of species with different needs can be successfully kept and propagated is through a lack of environmental variances.

This hobby is built entirely around monkey see monkey do. We have not come to this point in the hobby with the collective experience that wide variables and extremes are good for our tank. Would we not all agree that CONSISTENCY means more for a successful reef than hitting a target number here and there?

I think the author may have some good points valid to a real reef ecosystem. I think there is a huge lack of information or variables taken into consideration to apply to our captive reefs. I donít have enough time or desire to poke all the holes he has left open.
Iím no expert by ANY stretch in this hobby but this article is anecdotal at best. Even to a laymen like me.

Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 12:06 PM   #19
Seth The Wine Guy Seth The Wine Guy is offline
ARC BoD

ARC Member
 
Seth The Wine Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,684
City: Cumming
State: GA
Occupation: Home improvement and roofing contractor
Other Interests: Wine, food, skiing, fly fishing, deep sea fishing, Colorado
Quote:
Originally Posted by grouper therapy View Post
[/COLOR]

I find those contradict one another . Please explain.
Actually, I would first like to hear your thoughts. Put the highlighter away and grab your pen!
__________________
"It's not the size of the tank that matters, it's what you do with it."

Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2011, 12:25 PM   #20
grouper therapy grouper therapy is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,093
City: Dallas
State: GA
Occupation: CUSTOM STAND AND CABINET MAKER
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth The Wine Guy View Post
Actually, I would first like to hear your thoughts. Put the highlighter away and grab your pen!
I will see you Tuesday and time permitting I would like to talk shop a little

Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 users and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Coral Reefs & nutrients Ralph ATL Reef Discussion 1 09-20-2011 9:18 PM
Bad news for coral reefs GordoB Reef Discussion 20 02-26-2011 10:33 PM
conservation and coral reefs at risk Ralph ATL Reef Discussion 1 02-23-2011 9:42 PM
What if all coral reefs die? Akopley Reef Discussion 2 03-26-2010 1:14 PM
Coral reefs - the new threat.. SShindell The Lounge 3 06-26-2007 11:33 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 4:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Atlanta Reef Club, Inc.