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Old 06-11-2010, 10:29 AM   #1
Maestro Maestro is offline
 
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Return line plumbing question...

I am trying to choose the path of most uninhibited flow for my tank's return. The majority of the flow goes up to the tank, and part of the pump's flow is recirculated back into the sump into a fuge box (not shown).

So... Do i want the return line coming off the T on the right, as shown; or should I connect the return to the left side valve union, so the water shoots straight up?


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Old 06-11-2010, 10:37 AM   #2
texhorns98 texhorns98 is offline
 
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The less turns the better. Each 90 degree elbow adds 1 foot of head height. You can see how your pump performs for varying head heights and decide from there if the configuration you desire is worth the loss of flow.

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Old 06-11-2010, 10:38 AM   #3
EnderG60 EnderG60 is offline
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ideally you want the majority of the flow to have the straightest path, but since your valving both branches down and since the losses for such a small system are so low, it really doesnt matter. if thats how it is now, no point wasting money to do it over.

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Old 06-11-2010, 10:39 AM   #4
Budsreef Budsreef is offline
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Hmmmm......interesting question. Hopefully, someone with actual engineering knowledge will be able to answer, but one question that comes to mind is how strong of a pump are you using and how much return flow are you wanting within the tank? Every bend in the line will add to the overall head pressure on the pump so it might be better to have the return going straight up to the tank and use the T for the bleed off.

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Old 06-11-2010, 10:40 AM   #5
EnderG60 EnderG60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texhorns98 View Post
The less turns the better. Each 90 degree elbow adds 1 foot of head height. You can see how your pump performs for varying head heights and decide from there if the configuration you desire is worth the loss of flow.

not really, if that was the case 5 elbows and most of our pumps wouldnt work at all.

EDIT : bud, I am a plumbing/HVAC engineer :p

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Old 06-11-2010, 10:40 AM   #6
texhorns98 texhorns98 is offline
 
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Out of curiosity, why the ball valve on the return line?

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Old 06-11-2010, 11:31 AM   #7
texhorns98 texhorns98 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by EnderG60 View Post
not really, if that was the case 5 elbows and most of our pumps wouldnt work at all.

EDIT : bud, I am a plumbing/HVAC engineer :p
http://www.petsolutions.com/Article.aspx?id=179

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Old 06-11-2010, 11:44 AM   #8
EnderG60 EnderG60 is offline
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oh wow if its on a pet supply website it must be true!

if you want the real answer Ill type it up this weekend but it will be about 3 pages long and include dynamic flow charts.....

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Old 06-11-2010, 11:47 AM   #9
bratliff bratliff is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro View Post
So... Do i want the return line coming off the T on the right, as shown; or should I connect the return to the left side valve union, so the water shoots straight up?
Plumb the return line straight up and the feed the fuge off of the T.

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Old 06-11-2010, 11:50 AM   #10
johnr2604 johnr2604 is offline
 
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I would personally do it opposite of how its pictured. Should be pretty easy looks like you can just flip the pump around and connect the unions the other way.

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Old 06-11-2010, 12:01 PM   #11
texhorns98 texhorns98 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by EnderG60 View Post
oh wow if its on a pet supply website it must be true!

if you want the real answer Ill type it up this weekend but it will be about 3 pages long and include dynamic flow charts.....
I'll look forward to it! Increased head height by adding 90s is not something new to this hobby. Not to say it's exactly a 1:1, but I can't imagine it's a total myth either. I didn't study fluid dynamics in college, but I'm smart enough to know that a straight pipe will flow easier than one with elbows.

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Old 06-11-2010, 1:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texhorns98 View Post
The less turns the better. Each 90 degree elbow adds 1 foot of head height. You can see how your pump performs for varying head heights and decide from there if the configuration you desire is worth the loss of flow.
thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderG60 View Post
ideally you want the majority of the flow to have the straightest path, but since your valving both branches down and since the losses for such a small system are so low, it really doesnt matter. if thats how it is now, no point wasting money to do it over.
thanks, everything is on unions, though, so there's no money to waste

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budsreef View Post
Hmmmm......interesting question. Hopefully, someone with actual engineering knowledge will be able to answer, but one question that comes to mind is how strong of a pump are you using and how much return flow are you wanting within the tank? Every bend in the line will add to the overall head pressure on the pump so it might be better to have the return going straight up to the tank and use the T for the bleed off.
The pump is rated at 792 gph, my overflow is rated at 700gph. I'm not sure how much return flow I need since i have 2 mp10's for flow. That's actually been my dilemma: backing the flow down for a quieter flow vs optimal flow thru sump/filtration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderG60 View Post
not really, if that was the case 5 elbows and most of our pumps wouldnt work at all.

EDIT : bud, I am a plumbing/HVAC engineer :p
lol - i'm staying out of this

Quote:
Originally Posted by texhorns98 View Post
Out of curiosity, why the ball valve on the return line?
so during tank maintenance I can disconnect the pump without having water drip back down from the display. Also for aesthetic uniformity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bratliff View Post
Plumb the return line straight up and the feed the fuge off of the T.
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnr2604 View Post
I would personally do it opposite of how its pictured. Should be pretty easy looks like you can just flip the pump around and connect the unions the other way.
thanks John and bratliff, that's what i did. I can feel the difference in flow already... Now i can back down the vortech on the right side of the tank where the return comes out

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Old 06-11-2010, 1:42 PM   #13
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Why do you have the one line returning to the sump ?
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He that walks with the wise becomes wise, he that walks with the stupid fares badly.

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Old 06-11-2010, 2:01 PM   #14
Budsreef Budsreef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Budsreef View Post
Hmmmm......interesting question. Hopefully, someone with actual engineering knowledge will be able to answer, but one question that comes to mind is how strong of a pump are you using and how much return flow are you wanting within the tank? Every bend in the line will add to the overall head pressure on the pump so it might be better to have the return going straight up to the tank and use the T for the bleed off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnderG60 View Post

EDIT : bud, I am a plumbing/HVAC engineer :p
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro View Post
lol - i'm staying out of this

Just for clarity, when I was typing my reply there were no other responses so I was merely saying I was not an engineer and hoped that those with engineering knowledge would answer. I did not see the two reponses before mine until after I hit the submit button so my response had nothing to do with the others, except that I clearly type slower.

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Old 06-11-2010, 2:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grouper therapy View Post
Why do you have the one line returning to the sump ?
it feeds into this little MRC fuge box

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Old 06-11-2010, 8:30 PM   #16
johnr2604 johnr2604 is offline
 
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Looks great man .

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Old 06-11-2010, 8:38 PM   #17
weaglereefer weaglereefer is offline
 
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Looking sharp. Keep in mind that you don't really want to count the flow from the sump return in your flow numbers for the tank.

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Old 06-11-2010, 8:48 PM   #18
ibleedblue65 ibleedblue65 is offline
 
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Looking sharp. Keep in mind that you don't really want to count the flow from the sump return in your flow numbers for the tank.
I did not know this. Why?

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Old 06-11-2010, 8:52 PM   #19
weaglereefer weaglereefer is offline
 
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The whole point of the sump is to hide equipment and let it be effective. If you have water flying past the skimmer and heater, you may not get sufficient dwell time for the devices to work at optimum efficiency. It will also be noisy as more water means more splashing.

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Old 06-11-2010, 9:56 PM   #20
texhorns98 texhorns98 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by au01st View Post
The whole point of the sump is to hide equipment and let it be effective. If you have water flying past the skimmer and heater, you may not get sufficient dwell time for the devices to work at optimum efficiency. It will also be noisy as more water means more splashing.
This is why I use a SLOW return pump and count on my Vortech, et. al for the real flow!

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