Great meet and very interesting concepts. But I don't know if I can do that. Replacing all of my skimmers with mud... To be honest I will probably try at one point in a smaller tank, but I would be testing hourly. I kinda think of this as LED, I really don't want to be the first to try and be the first to fail.

I think one of the reason I am sort of apprehensive about this is my equipment. Somewhere deep inside , I am hoping for the Berlin style. Cause after spending all that money and just realizing that mud out of Mexico is better... I might cry

I have been thinking about it a lot since last night and I agree. I am intrigued at the prospect of running a system that is so basic. I am interested in seeing some long term results with respect to corals that grow in an Eco System type set-up.

I wonder why his Cap did not make it? Mud maybe?

I hate it that I missed the meeting last night! This sounds very interesting and reminiscent of what reads as the GARF Bullet Proof tank....

Is any of this info available online? I feel I've cheated myself by not being there. (We had a death in the family over the weekend, and all plans have changed since)

I enjoyed the meeting too. And Leng was certainly interesting. My take on it right now is that there's always been more than one way to skin a cat. I suspect either method will probaby yield acceptable results and each method will probably have positives and negatives.

That being said, I can't wait for a few of my fellow ARCers to try his method to so I can see the results vicariously!

I was very intrigued about this topic as well. I'd like to see the results of his new test tanks over the next year. In theory it sounds great! I'd love to have the kind of tank that requires little maintenance and even no feeding! It's a cool thought, but who knows. I'm also interested to see the outcome of the tank that has both the skimmer and the mud. I would think it would only be a win, win.

Dang I missed the meeting again...:doh:

Whoa!

Is this what you guys are talking about?

http://www.athiel.com/lib7/lengsy.htm

This dates back to the 1990's....... I read about this when I got back in the hobby in 2003....

Dakota, here's the link to Mr. Sy's website.
http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/contact-us/about-us.html

Thanks Stacy!

Edit:

Edit:

Edit: We're talking about Miracle Mud?

(insert baffled/puzzled emoticon here)

This idea has been around for like ever! I though this was some new approach, instead, it's a re-hashed older method.

The Plenum Filter works too! There's just better ways of achieving the same thing.

I've used Miracle Mud before when I had my 150. I had 8 t5 bulbs and ADHI refugium. Had a lot of beginner corals nothing fancy. They all had great color to them and I did not feed them. Only issue I had with the mud is that it is expensive to start up. You have to use a lot to achieve the best results. Fish never got sick and I did use a skimmer and no uv light.

This method has been around for a long time, since about 1996 or so. I would advise anyone interested to do some research on the web before making any drastic changes to their main systems.

There are reasons why some methodologies are popular and why some are not, and some prior investigation can reveal why some like a method and some don't. I like to experiment as much as the next person, but maybe set up a small scale tank with the system prior to going full blown on all your tanks.

You know I was kind of surprised that some have not heard of this method, then again i know notice this forum is pretty conservative when it comes trying something new.

Well, it's definitely conservative..... But that's a whole nother story........

The Miracle Mud system does work, but skimmers are easier and require less space. Most of the "old salts" in the club realize this.

This topic has been discussed here before. There are (or were) some forum Members that used it. The mud method my be unknown to some, but it is not new by any means.

Also, this isn't really "new". I think a better term would be "tried and rejected by most".

I think it's a good idea, but I put it in the same category with the Plenum Filter, algae scrubber, and natural sunlight for a tank. They are all good ideas, there's just easier ways to achieve virtually the same result.

I heard him saying that the system provided better growth , anyone think this would a viable way to do a frag tank? I mean with little to no bioload, would u even have to do a water change?

I heard him saying that the system provided better growth , anyone think this would a viable way to do a frag tank? I mean with little to no bioload, would u even have to do a water change?


Even if this worked - you would need to replenish a LOT more traceelements for good growth...

Remember that Leng also said that it was only for specific types of fish (herbivores & grazers?).

FWIW- The corals gain their energy mostly from light.

I found it reminding me of the 'biosphere' experiments in the desert SW, where everything (nutrients/gases) cycled around the various ecosystems.

I heard him saying that the system provided better growth , anyone think this would a viable way to do a frag tank? I mean with little to no bioload, would u even have to do a water change?He actually commented on that exact thing. No water changes but..... 50 percent of the mud would need to be changed once a year to replenish the trace elements.

Now at the time he made that statement, he chuckled and said "we have to find a way bring in the revenue". Sounds great!!! but I'd like to see his results of his current testing with the new systems. This will be very interesting to see the ongoing results of the different combinations of Berlin and Eco systems.

He actually commented on that exact thing. No water changes but..... 50 percent of the mud would need to be changed once a year to replenish the trace elements.

Now at the time he made that statement, he chuckled and said "we have to find a way bring in the revenue". Sounds great!!! but I'd like to see his results of his current testing with the new systems. This will be very interesting to see the ongoing results of the different combinations of Berlin and Eco systems.


I suppose you have to find ways to keep an idea fresh in order to generate returns, but does anyone else find it odd that they are still testing an idea / product that is 15 years old?

All said and and done, I still wish I'd attended the meeting

But also remeber that keeping hard coral was very difficult not too long ago. Technology as come a long way, maybe its just starting to assist the mud properly. For what its worth I am probably going to be a guinea pig in this after my 25 cube is done.

Set up a small DIY all in one

I'd also like to try the mud

Organic acid.... I wanted to ask him what his take was on removing this in his "water-changeless" set-up. Not doubting it, but organic acid lowers the pH and discolors the water. A good skimmer would keep this under control but I don't have faith in a mud filter alone. It may be fine for super hardy soft corals, but I don't see too many of this hobbyists on this forum.

I think the reason the Sps in the original mud tank grew faster because of the excess nutrient, but lacked color due to the excess exposure to organic acid. Activated carbon will remove some, but not the amount a skimmer would remove. The mud would "feed" the corals with nutrients, but not provide the pristine environment that will allow sps to fully flourish.

The berlin set up would provide less nutrient to feed the coral and give it a good growth foundation, but would keep the acidification at bay and allow for more "pure" water.

Most sps care givers will find that if you let your tank get a little too dirty, corals loose color.

This is just a hypothesis.