Man, that is an awesome looking tank! VERY well done!

I am sorry to hear that it went down hill... what happened?

Thanks.

We had a baby, so the tank was neglected for a few months. Corals started losing color and a couple things started to STN. I assumed it was due to lack of maintenance, but even after 1500g of water changes in the past couple months, things continue to melt away. I've never had this kind of issue, and despite everything that I know and have tried, things continue to get worse. I'm fully willing to accept that it's something I've done, but I don't have a clue anymore what that might be...

water changes, and change out carbon and gfo every 10 days....move to vodka could also be an answer......


check for bugs.

water changes, and change out carbon and gfo every 10 days....move to vodka could also be an answer......


check for bugs.

I've tried all that (except the vodka, and I'm not going there), plus everything else I can possibly think of: Disabling ca reactor, GFO/no GFO, GAC/no GAC, no dosing, no ozone, no UV, using Salinity salt with 100-200g/week water changes, cleaned all pumps, checked flow inside tank, replaced all bulbs, tested the water, tested for electrical grounding, completely cleaned out my sump, and a few other things I can't think of at the moment.

Is that beautiful blue/green clam doing ok???

:)

Is that beautiful blue/green clam doing ok???

:)

Unfortunately, no - I lost that clam as well. I do still have the teardrop maxima (the other large clam next to it), but the blue one was lost somewhere in all this mess... probably one of my most depressing losses...

Wow Chris! I'm really sorry to hear that! Your tank was awesome. You have some amazing things in that tank and I couldn't stop telling people about it when I came over last. I hope that you can turn things around and get it to bounce back.

Thanks. It's been frustrating and depressing, for sure.

Chris, can you post your latest water parameters? Have you checked for stray voltage?

I got a confirmation for the testing Chris, will have results friday or so...

Chris, can you post your latest water parameters?

Ammonia, nitrate: 0 ppm
Phosphate: 0.03 ppm
Alkalinity: 7.5 dKH
Calcium: 400 ppm
pH: 7.95-8.1
Temp: 75-77

I know there's some nitrate / phosphate in the system, as I have some cyano on the sandbed and some hair algae that grows on my overflow teeth. But that's expected with the amount of coral death I've been having.

Have you checked for stray voltage?

Yup. I even tested with everything turned off, to get a baseline, and then turned on each pump, heater, etc, etc, on until the end - the voltage between the tank water and house ground always floated around 0.000.

I got a confirmation for the testing Chris, will have results friday or so...

Great - thanks.

Robin is having my water tested by some super secret mass spectrometer or something. Or maybe it was a monkey in his basement. Either way, it'll be 3rd party verification.

Can you ID the 2 corals in your tank I sent you a pm about.

We asked Ouling to taste your water for confirmation...

Sorry to hear about your tank Chris.

Chris, Ive seen this happen a few times in systems and could never figure out the issue either. What I ended up doing was setting up a stand alone system with new water and existing system rock. I mainly used that to frag large pieces of coral from and put them in that tank to recover. My goal was to prevent losing the whole colony. I found that eventually the tank would bounce back but without removing a good portion of corals most would have been lost.

I have a 4'x4' frag tank/stand and 400w halide sitting in my storage unit. If you want to borrow it to hold some corals in its yours.

Can you ID the 2 corals in your tank I sent you a pm about.

This one is just a random tabling acro that I got from Fosters and Smith:

http://www.atlantareefclub.org/~arci...e/IMG_1483.jpg (http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/../%7Earcimages/TOTM/2-2010/large/IMG_1483.jpg)


And this one is my "shaggy watermelon".

http://www.atlantareefclub.org/~arci...e/IMG_1478.jpg (http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/../%7Earcimages/TOTM/2-2010/large/IMG_1478.jpg)


I'm not doing frags right now, due to everything talked about in this thread, but you may be able to get some of the shaggy watermelon from someone else in the club - I've fragged it a good bit.

Thoes are the 2 nicest corals I have seen.

Chris, Ive seen this happen a few times in systems and could never figure out the issue either. What I ended up doing was setting up a stand alone system with new water and existing system rock. I mainly used that to frag large pieces of coral from and put them in that tank to recover. My goal was to prevent losing the whole colony. I found that eventually the tank would bounce back but without removing a good portion of corals most would have been lost.

And it's quickly headed that way... I've got probably 60-70% of my corals still, but a lot of the nice ones are already gone. I removed a soccer-ball sized piece of pink birdsnest (used to be pink, anyway) just the other day. I also lost my colony of pink stylophora - the size of a football when I pulled out the skeleton...

I have a 4'x4' frag tank/stand and 400w halide sitting in my storage unit. If you want to borrow it to hold some corals in its yours.

Thanks. I actually have a 140g frag tank ready to go (actually, being used to hold corals for the frag meeting this weekend when they arrive). I just haven't committed to tearing corals out of my tank yet... :sad:

Thoes are the 2 nicest corals I have seen.

Fortunately, I still have both of these. They've been fragged and distributed as "insurance"...

Believe me, I realize how frustrating it is. I had this Myagi tort the size of a softball that I had been growing for years and years as my show piece. It was the first to go downhill of some of my SPS and I now have 4 good size frags left to show for it :(

I'm so sorry Chris. Your tank was truly beautiful. I hope you get it under control. As you know, I'm going through my own personal "reefer shame" right now, so I feel your pain.

Oh well, maybe starting anew will revive your love of the hobby.

I will donate some frags when you get everything going. We had a big crash a while back, almost made me Not want to try again. If it was not for Jesspete, Chris and Tim we would of stayed out of the hobby.

Chris, is Christine's tank still plumbed with yours, or has your layout changed? I was just wondering how the corals in her tank were doing.

Feel your pain man...sorry to hear it.

Chris, your pH seems a little bit low to me being that it's 7.95-8.1. Also has your temp always been that low?

Chris, is Christine's tank still plumbed with yours, or has your layout changed? I was just wondering how the corals in her tank were doing.

It is, and it's having the same problems, which tells me that it's directly related to the water quality.

Chris, your pH seems a little bit low to me being that it's 7.95-8.1. Also has your temp always been that low?

It's a little low, but it's been stable. My temp is a little low, but I tend to keep it lower in the winter just to keep costs down a little.

Sorry to hear about the tanks :sad:. Hope things turn around quickly for you....

What salt are you using maybe you should try another brand? Could have a bad batch?

If it is some type of bacteria or virus it might be best to move the stn -rtn ing corals out of the display into system with uv and no sand. That would help lower the bio, bacteria, virus load and help prevent new infections.

The other possibility is some type of contamination from one of the pumps?

What salt are you using maybe you should try another brand? Could have a bad batch?

I was using Instant Ocean when this all started, for about 3-4 months, and then picked up several barrels of Salinity to help flush the system. Dave (acroholic) has been using the salt from the same batch, so while it's possible, it's unlikely it's the salt.

If it is some type of bacteria or virus it might be best to move the stn -rtn ing corals out of the display into system with uv and no sand. That would help lower the bio, bacteria, virus load and help prevent new infections.

Good idea. I'd rather not chop up my good remaining corals, but it may come down to that.

The other possibility is some type of contamination from one of the pumps?

That had crossed my mind as well. With 4 vortecs, 4 tunzes, and two sequences, though, it'd cost a fortune to replace them all to see. I'm open to suggestions on what to test for...

I have an idea... I went to go order some replacement membranes from AirWaterIce, and got to thinking about my RO setup. I describe it all in this thread (http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53365).

I've been running my 75gpd RO membranes at 85psi, and I can create around 100-200gpd of RO water, depending on the temperature.

I wonder if I've been pushing my membranes too hard, causing them to slowly become useless, then adding that water to my tank. It does go through two DI cartridges first, but I doubt those DI's could strip out tap water at the rate I push water through...

Any thoughts?

With your regime, I doubt you introduced a pathogen. Have you checked your bulbs to make sure theyre not cracked and spilling uv into the tank.

What's the TDS after DI?

With your regime, I doubt you introduced a pathogen. Have you checked your bulbs to make sure theyre not cracked and spilling uv into the tank.

No... but it's happening with Christine's tank as well, which shares the same water. And I replaced all the lights on both tanks mid-October, when things first really started going downhill. That was a cheap order...

I think he replaced them. If it's the membrane, how long do you usually mix change water, and is the ro/di feeding directly to the tank for makeup water?


With your regime, I doubt you introduced a pathogen. Have you checked your bulbs to make sure theyre not cracked and spilling uv into the tank.

What's the TDS after DI?

36ish in. 0 out.

If it's the membrane, how long do you usually mix change water, and is the ro/di feeding directly to the tank for makeup water?

It varies, but typically 24 hours. I do it in 100g batches, so it takes at least that long to mix up to the point where it's clear.

RO/DI doesn't feed directly into the tank - it goes into a 25g storage container- the same container used for only RO storage for the past 4-5 years, and then refilled about once per week (manual on/off, for safety).

36ish in. 0 out.

0 TDS water is pure by definition, so I'd rule that out.

But TDS is solids- you could have 100ppm nitrate, and that would's show up. At least, not as I understand it. Or anything organic...

Man, i hate to hear and read this thread. I live in fear of coming home every week and seeing the same thing happen in my 210 tank. I have no clue as to what else to look at since you've checked an double checked every thing I would think about. I hope things turn around for you man.... it really sux. Good luck.

Bob

To check the pumps you would just do the normal disassemble to clean them and check for cracks or any sign of a problem. I would also check the heaters.

I guess I would have to think that your tank is fine except that once stn/rtn starts it is hard to stop. I think it starts with one coral and as the virus or bacteria load increases other corals sucum to the infectious agent.

Do you have a uv? Also does the stn start at the base?

[QUOTE=tromblydavid;610487]\I guess I would have to think that your tank is fine except that once stn/rtn starts it is hard to stop. I think it starts with one coral and as the virus or bacteria load increases other corals sucum to the infectious agent\QUOTE]
I have to disagree. I had the same thing happen to my 34 cube(actually the same situation with a new child and tank neglect). I did a few water changes and the RAPID rtn stopped in its tracks. IMO, STN and RTN can be stopped with water quality improvement.
Chris,
Have you tested for heavy metals? IE copper? It is possible that one of the kids dropped something in the tank?

To check the pumps you would just do the normal disassemble to clean them and check for cracks or any sign of a problem. I would also check the heaters.

Heaters have been checked- they're just simple titanium elements -no thermostat or anything to leak. I do need to send my sequence pumps off for routine maintenance, but they're built so that very little metal is exposed to the saltwater. Still, it's a possibility.

I guess I would have to think that your tank is fine except that once stn/rtn starts it is hard to stop. I think it starts with one coral and as the virus or bacteria load increases other corals sucum to the infectious agent.

Do you have a uv? Also does the stn start at the base?I do have a UV sterilizer - 114w. No- the coral dies as if it's... in bad water. It's not really STN - it just slowly turns brown and then starts shedding polyps. Even my hammer corals and other very tolerant corals are dieing - the hammer is literally melting away- I find heads that were fine just a day or two on the sandbed the next day.

Have you tested for heavy metals? IE copper? It is possible that one of the kids dropped something in the tank?

I haven't recently. I do have a copper test kit -I can give it a try tomorrow. My only child is a 14 month old, who can barely walk, and the only exposed water where she (or anyone else) is is 7' over the top of the canopy, so I don't think she or anyone else could have accidentally thrown anything into the tank...

But TDS is solids- you could have 100ppm nitrate, and that would's show up. At least, not as I understand it. Or anything organic...

Actually, that's not correct:
TDS includes nitrate, chloride, sulfate, etc., (all the anions) plus all the cations...

Anything in water that is not filtered out mechanically or a gas will register as a TDS.

A TDS meter just measures conductivity - so any ion will register...


+1 on a copper test - a hairline crack in a Tunze body could easily be overlooked...

Actually, that's not correct:
TDS includes nitrate, chloride, sulfate, etc., (all the anions) plus all the cations...

Anything in water that is not filtered out mechanically or a gas will register as a TDS.

A TDS meter just measures conductivity - so any ion will register...

Ahh... makes sense.


+1 on a copper test - a hairline crack in a Tunze body could easily be overlooked...

I just went downstairs and did a copper test. 0ppm. I even looked through the test tube long ways on a white background, and still saw no color. Granted, that test kit is old, so it's still possible.

See the attached picture. Looks like I lost another head today. This was taken minutes ago, after the lights are off.

See how the flesh itself has still got color and otherwise looks healthy, yet has come right off the skeleton?

I've had this coral for probably 5 years, so it's not a matter of being acclimated to my system...

I know you triple ruled it out, but detaching of flesh from LPS is usually linked to MAG problems.

OK- I'll do a magnesium test in the morning, to be sure.

I think I should also find a local source of Poly Filters...

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/eb_jl_111598.html

http://www.reefhq.com.au/home/behind_the_scenes/research_collaborations/past_research/coral_disease

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-03/eb/index.php

http://www.reefs.org/library/aquarium_net/0498/0498_2.html

If you want info overload with no definitive answer check these out.

I think if you read them all you may come away with a process you want to try.

I for one would remove colonies that are infected to the quarantine system. Someone else here could probably hold the corals for the frag meetiing.

Chris,

First let me say I think it is a travesty that this is happening to you and your corals.

Below are the links to a couple of articles that I have come across that reference the use of chloramphenicol or chloromycetin as an antibiotic treatment for coral disease/necrosis. It is available from a Vet, so you may be in luck. Craig Bingman who wrote this article, feels strongly that this antibiotic is the preferred treatment, defends his reasoning and lays out the preferred protocol based on his experiences.

The second article lists chloramphenicol and the use of other antibiotics as well, with specific application depending on symptoms and appearance. It was written by Dana Riddle.

We wish you the very best in your battle to save your reef!

http://www.reefs.org/library/talklog/c_bingman_040697.html

http://www.livingreefs.com/invert-pathogens-t591.html

Oops! I see great minds think alike.

Raj mentioned antibiotics as well the other day while he was here...

I scanned the articles that David posted, and they all also suggested a bacterial infection of some type. I'm not sure if RTN-related infections can jump from species to species (or even genus to genus), but it may be worthwhile trying an antibiotic system-wide and seeing what effects it has. It honestly isn't going to make things much worse...

As an aside, all the corals for the frag meeting will be kept in a completely separate system, with 100% newly-made up water. In fact, my frag tank has been dry for a year now - I had a leak last year, and this meeting was an excuse to get it fixed.

Also, I'll be dipping every coral that comes in into Revive, to minimize the spread of disease to other people's tanks.


In short, the problems with my current system will in no way affect the corals that will be fragged on Saturday.

Chris,

Please check out the first article I posted in particular. Craig Bingman's position is solid. I think the chloramphenicol may be your magic bullet. When you read Craig's article he will explain why.

Wow... it sounds effective, but the cure sounds more dangerous than the disease...

yeah that sounds pretty rough to me! but then again drastic times call for drastic measures!? i know that someone suggested checking your pumps earlier so I thought I would throw in my friends experience. he bought a "salt or fresh" pump that had a stainless impeller. didn't know that at first, and it ran for a long time with no problems and all of the sudden(tank was about a year old) he started losing fish, corals, whole nine yards and ended up finding that impeller was rusting. not saying that is your problem but it sounds kinda close to what my friend said. great water tests and everything was dying off... best of luck

Craig has a PhD in chemistry, so consider the source. By that, I mean he is always extremely thorough, especially in his disclosures of potential complications.

With that said, he goes on to explain how he treated his entire tank, which remained disease free for over a year afterward. He wrote this article in 1997, when many other 'thought leaders' were postulating.

He does advocate the use of a huge skimmer, which I know you have. Considering the alternative, I would not consider this treatment extreme. There is precedent for the use of this antibiotic on corals in the literature.

From what I read here, it appears I need to get my hands on several things I don't currently have:

- chloramphenicol. Christine is heading into work tomorrow, so I'll see if she can get her hands on some. I have 640gal of actual water volume (best estimate). He recommends 2.5-5 mg/L, so I need to get 6 - 12 grams. (check me)
- absolute ethanol or "everclear" drinkable alcohol - Can I get the latter at a package store?
- ORP meter. I believe mine is up and running correctly. I never check it, so I'd need to verify. It'd probably be best to borrow someone's, to have a secondary one
- DO meter. I don't have one, and I don't know anyone who does. While I could use ORP only, it'd be nice to have DO as well, just be safer
- Bleach or potassium permanganate. I think I have some unscented bleach, but if not, that's easy enough to get.

So... it sounds like I need to get ahold of another ORP probe (I've got several meters...) and possibly a DO meter. Anyone have one they want to let me borrow?

The other article recommends Neomycin or Streptomycin to use instead.

I have some Potassium permanganate. You are welcome to use however much you need. Good luck finding a DO probe. They are really expensive which is why I don't use them.

The other article recommends Neomycin or Streptomycin to use instead.

Right, but the article about CAM talks about limited efficacy of either of those. If I'm going to try something like this, I need to try the most effective option...

I have some Potassium permanganate. You are welcome to use however much you need.

Thanks - I may take you up on that... Will you be at the meeting?

Good luck finding a DO probe. They are really expensive which is why I don't use them.

Yeah- same here. I've looked at them, but never had a good reason to get one...

Oh and things can get worse so be careful. You can harm your good bacteria an cause the tank to cycle which would be very bad news with the heavy bioload you must have now.

Have you kept your tunze and vortecs clean? The intakes can get restricted if you let the coraline algae build up. Flow is definitely affected as your corals grow and could start a problem as the centers of large colonies have decreased flow.

Have you kept your tunze and vortecs clean? The intakes can get restricted if you let the coraline algae build up. Flow is definitely affected as your corals grow and could start a problem as the centers of large colonies have decreased flow.

I've cleaned them recently, in case that was the issue.

But, remember that my wife's 300g tank is connected to the same system, and having the same problems. It'd be unlikely that both systems would have the same problems, both related to flow, at the same time...

I was thinking about going because I wanted to bring some coral to frag and give away but now I have to work. You are no from from me from what I remember.

From what I read here, it appears I need to get my hands on several things I don't currently have:

- chloramphenicol. Christine is heading into work tomorrow, so I'll see if she can get her hands on some. I have 640gal of actual water volume (best estimate). He recommends 2.5-5 mg/L, so I need to get 6 - 12 grams. (check me)
- absolute ethanol or "everclear" drinkable alcohol - Can I get the latter at a package store?
- ORP meter. I believe mine is up and running correctly. I never check it, so I'd need to verify. It'd probably be best to borrow someone's, to have a secondary one
- DO meter. I don't have one, and I don't know anyone who does. While I could use ORP only, it'd be nice to have DO as well, just be safer
- Bleach or potassium permanganate. I think I have some unscented bleach, but if not, that's easy enough to get.

So... it sounds like I need to get ahold of another ORP probe (I've got several meters...) and possibly a DO meter. Anyone have one they want to let me borrow?

-Your dosage conversion is correct.
-The Everclear (brand) IS available at a package store. 180 proof/90% ethanol.
-As to the bleach or potassium permanganate/oxidant, you may consider using hydrogen peroxide.
-I may have a DO test kit. If so, you are welcome to it.
-No ORP meter though

Hopefully this will work out to be the successful test case for a resolving a lot of misery. Best of luck!

The flow thing would have been the initiator. I think your problem is now self sustaining that's why I advocated moving the affect colonies to your quarantine system so that the source of the infectious agent could be drastically reduced for the unaffected corals. If you are at the point where all corals are affected then you are definately in a dire situation but separating could still provide some relief... Divide and conquer.

Don't you think someone else could take over the handling of the corals for the frag meeting. I think you have your hands full with this problem.

I think you should stick with what you know...........

massive water changes twice a week (whatever salt, just stick with it)
use gfo, change every 10 days
use carbon, change every 10 days
add biogest monthly
change out some live rock monthly

Don't you think someone else could take over the handling of the corals for the frag meeting.
:eek: Unfortunately, I don't think that is possible.

This may be completely non related, but for the sake of covering all bases, has anyone put any kind of plug in air freshener in the house recently. The reason I say this is I had that problem with one of those automatic air wick fresheners all the way on the other side of house. It was getting distributed by the AC system. The only way I found it is it finally ran out, and everything got better, only to get worse when I replaced the can of freshener. Just a thought.

-Your dosage conversion is correct.
-The Everclear (brand) IS available at a package store. 180 proof/90% ethanol.
-As to the bleach or potassium permanganate/oxidant, you may consider using hydrogen peroxide.
-I may have a DO test kit. If so, you are welcome to it.
-No ORP meter though

Hopefully this will work out to be the successful test case for a resolving a lot of misery. Best of luck!

Before I go the CAM route, I want to make sure all other options are explored. Besides, my wife is really anxious about using CAM with a 14 month old in the house.

I noted this, which complicates things: I took several frags of remaining corals to Oz, for safe keeping. We dipped for about 15 mins in CoralRx, and then added the corals (and no water xferred, with a SW rinse in between) to his tank. The next day, they look great. Several days later, PE is great - it's as if nothing happened.

So.... I'm wondering if it's not a bacterial infection after all. If it were, then the CoralRx wouldn't have knocked it out, would it? And if that's the case, then CAM is probably not worth the risk to the tank.

I thought about doing my own experiment at home, here I take a coral out of my tank and
a) dip and put into a new tank with new water
b) just move it into a new tank with new water
c) dip it and put it back in my tank

And then going from there. Any comments?

I remember some time ago reading a thread by Simon and a bad batch of salt. I can't remember the brand, obviously not salinity, that he had to get replacement by the manufacture. Did you get the test results yet?

I remember some time ago reading a thread by Simon and a bad batch of salt. I can't remember the brand, obviously not salinity, that he had to get replacement by the manufacture. Did you get the test results yet?

Not yet. I considered the bad batch, but it's Salinity, which should be tested before leaving the facility, and I know Dave (acroholic) got a big batch of it as well, and hasn't had any problems...

How old is the sand bed, I have heard of old sand beds crashing and then crashing the whole system.

I would personally try and remove as much livestock and re-home them in another members tank (if possible of course). Break the tank down and clean everything and start over more or less. I would also throw out all of your sand and start with new sand. Of course this is all IMO.

How old is the sand bed, I have heard of old sand beds crashing and then crashing the whole system.

Replaced yearly... no more than 1" thick anywhere.

I would personally try and remove as much livestock and re-home them in another members tank (if possible of course). Break the tank down and clean everything and start over more or less. I would also throw out all of your sand and start with new sand. Of course this is all IMO.

That's a LOT of work on a 240+300 gallon reef systems. That may be an option is was a 75g tank or something, but what you're suggesting is no small feat... I'd rather explore other options first.

Replaced yearly... no more than 1" thick anywhere.



That's a LOT of work on a 240+300 gallon reef systems. That may be an option is was a 75g tank or something, but what you're suggesting is no small feat... I'd rather explore other options first.

Yeah but the question is, is the livestock worth all the work to get them out and make sure they do not continue to dwindle and re setup everything. Or try and figure out the problem and possibly lose more livestock. I understand that would be a lot of work but hey I'll lend a hand to make it easier on you.

Whats your Mg testing at?

send a sample to an independant lab, and see if they uncover something. There are a few that do a decent job with saltwater. Seachem might even be able to do it.

send a sample to an independant lab, and see if they uncover something. There are a few that do a decent job with saltwater. Seachem might even be able to do it.

Great idea. Hopefully it can get done timely.

Test test test!!!!! Please post a morning, your tanks midady, and a 2am test param. One will not work for me. What all has died in a list please. What is stocked in the tank fish wise? Coral wise and other inverts pleasE. How's your coraline look? Is there white area more then normal? How did the corals die? Slowly around the edges, bleached out, or overnight they die off? Does it look like the flesh falls off your sps?