View Full Version : Jenn's Grandbabies


courterbobby
06-29-2010, 8:29 PM
So here we are, finally got some eggs (thanks to Jenn at Imagine Ocean If you haven't visited...go). I have been raising rotifers, nannochloropsis, and tetraselmis. It has been a doosy just raising the rotifers and the algae, but I am looking forward to raising these fry.
Today at about 4pm I went up to Imagine Ocean to meet jenn for the clown eggs, and after the male defending his territory (bighting Jenn) the eggs were transfered into a critter container. Since the eggs were on a piece of PVC pipe, we cut smaller pieces of pvc to hold the one with the eggs in place.

I got home with the babies about 4:45 and made sure salinity and temp were matched between the critter container and fry tank I have set up.
As for my fry tank, I decided to go with a 1.5 gallon cube from wal-mart. It is actually for glow fish, but it included everything I would need down the road (filter,led light, bubbler), so I decided to go that route.

So now I have the eggs placed into my rearing tank with a bubbler in front of the eggs to keep them in motion. I also have rotifers in the tank with some green water to keep them alive also. The rearing tank is also covered with brown painters paper on three sides to keep light out. The only light they will get from now is what comes in through the closed winder shades. For an estimate, there is about 15 to 20 rotifers per ml based on looking through a pipette. I have learned so much from the breeders on here and hope to have a successful run. I am not going to cry if I am not successful, since this is my first time, as I am sure I will have more chances in the future. Any advice is always welcome.

I plan on keeping the fry in the cube till they go through meta, then start setting up for a larger tank. A week from now, I will start adding bbs. Heater is a bit big, but I am buying a smaller one tomorrow for that size tank.

I also want to thank Jenn for allowing me the opportunity...
So without further a-due here are the pixs (lights are off so everything looks brown bc of the brown paper on the sides)
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/Jenns%20Grandbabies/1.jpg
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/Jenns%20Grandbabies/2.jpg
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/Jenns%20Grandbabies/3.jpg
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/Jenns%20Grandbabies/DSCN0802.jpg
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/Jenns%20Grandbabies/DSCN0803.jpg

Assault
06-29-2010, 8:31 PM
Lookin' good

Shrimpy Brains
06-29-2010, 10:45 PM
Very cool! :thumbs: There's nothing better than raising your own babies. It's great fun watching them grow!
Looks like you have a nice set up!

I am sure there are a lot more experienced peeps on here than me. The only thing I might mention is, I start feeding my fry bbs about day 3. I add the bbs and rotifers for several days. At the end of a week, I start adding frozen rotifers and frozen cyclopeeze with the bbs.
After a couple of weeks, I start dried cyclopeeze with crushed flake, occasionally adding the bbs, frozen rotifers and frozen cyclopeeze.
I figure the more variety, the heathier they will be and faster they grow. Also, I get tired of hatching bbs twice a day.

My 2 cents!

courterbobby
06-30-2010, 1:22 AM
Cool thanks for the advice. I feed my rotifers DHA that has fatty acids yatta yatta yatta... you know all that "enrichment" stuff in addition to the algae, so I am hoping for some very healthy babies. I did not know you could add bbs so early and I may give that a shot. I will have some bbs up and going tomorrow at some point.

Rasbora
06-30-2010, 2:45 AM
Probably a lot of work, but it would be cool to see a day by day, or even a week by week slideshow of their growth.

JennM
06-30-2010, 4:17 AM
I'm curious to see if our guessing was right and they've hatched overnight.

I didn't see when the eggs were laid, I discovered them last Tuesday so they were laid either last Monday or earlier on Tuesday, so we were kind of wondering when hatch-day would be.

Perhaps later this morning we'll see...

Thanks, Bobby for taking them, I'm just not equipped (nor have the time/energy) to try to rear them, so I'm glad to see somebody give it ago.

The parents seem to have already "forgotten" about their "missing" eggs. We'll see if we have more in a week or so.

Jenn

bobz
06-30-2010, 8:25 AM
very nice! good luck with the first batch. Looking forward to watching the progress. I just wish I could quit traveling for work and get back in to tit!

BZ

courterbobby
06-30-2010, 10:22 AM
Thanks guys.
The eggs did not hatch last night, still a bit to early so hopefully tonight will be the night they spring out. Ill get some pixs up later today. I am going to try to take some pixs everyday because I want to keep log of their growth as well and watch my progress.

courterbobby
06-30-2010, 10:34 AM
So a rough count on the eggs ... I counted 326 excluging the circled area... so I would guess around 340 eggs
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/Jenns%20Grandbabies/4.jpg

JennM
06-30-2010, 10:52 AM
I've been looking for more info on incubation time. There can be variations due to temperature etc. Our temp is usually 78-79, but there is a bit of a drop at night... so maybe that's why it's a bit slow.

Everything I'm finding says from 7-10 days. Yesterday was the 7th day *for sure* unless they were laid on Monday before I noticed them (which is possible since I wasn't here).

Hope they do hatch OK...

Jenn

Barbara
06-30-2010, 11:57 AM
Mine always hatched around the 9-10th day when I had my breeding pair of false percs. I think it might depend on water temps and possibly flow.

courterbobby
06-30-2010, 4:58 PM
Here are the eggs today... they are more silver than yesterday... Don't know if thats a good sign or bad, but I am taking it as they are finishing up baking :) Maybe a hatch tonight?
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/Jenns%20Grandbabies/2010-06-302013_15_26.jpg

Shrimpy Brains
06-30-2010, 5:57 PM
On the bbs, I have always started adding them on day 3, because that is what I had read when I first starting raising them. You do need to overlap them with the rotifers till you make sure they are eating the bbs. So, say day 3 thru 7, I feed rotifers and bbs twice a day. Then go to just the bbs. Always overlap when changing to different food.
At some point, I started to worry about the lack of nutrition in bbs.(only nutritious for first 12 hours while they have yolk sacs) I used to throw in rots. occasionally. Then I started playing with adding frozen and dried items. I just keep trying different things and see what they will eat.

On the hatching, You may already know this, but you will find they are very shy and will only hatch in complete darkness. (generally about 1 hour after lights out. I know it's tempting, but shining a light to check, can scare them and postpone the hatch. I generally wait at least 2 hrs after lights out to check.
I didn't think they looked ready to hatch in your first post, but it's hard to tell from pictures. It's hard to describe, but when they are ready, you can barely see the egg (shell) and they just look ready to pop. Silver is a good color, if they start turning white(milky) you most likely lost them.
Looking at your latest pic, I would think(hope) they will hatch tonite.

courterbobby
06-30-2010, 9:02 PM
I do know temp got down in the tank last night to about 72 degrees and hopefully that did not take them out... They do not look "milky" when I look at them, but it did concern me that the temp got that low. I took the heater out bc it was rated for a 60g aquarium and I did not want it to over heat them in a 1.5g cube, but I hope I did not freeze them :(
We will see how they do tonight and I will update tomorrow!
Thanks

courterbobby
06-30-2010, 9:12 PM
Oh and I did pick up the right heater for the tank today also. Its one of the automatic heaters, so it will keep temps around 78 degrees. I have no idea why, but the room they are in, the tanks run colder than my display tanks which usually run 80 to 82 degrees with a vent over them.

JennM
07-01-2010, 7:12 AM
I think they should be OK, might slow the "baking time" a bit.

Who'd have thunk they'd be so slow to hatch!? Back in the day (in my 120, which ran a bit warmer) it was 7 days like clockwork.

Temperature really makes a difference, apparently!

Jenn

courterbobby
07-01-2010, 5:18 PM
So no hatch last night... Im starting think I might have froze the guys to death, but I am hoping I just stunted their hatch date a little. Here is a pix of them from today
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/Jenns%20Grandbabies/7.jpg

JennM
07-01-2010, 5:21 PM
Hmmm... hard to say. They are definitely "late"... maybe someone else who's been there, done that can tell...

My female is starting to get a round belly again - so hopefully they will spawn again.

Jenn

courterbobby
07-01-2010, 5:22 PM
Hmmm... hard to say. They are definitely "late"... maybe someone else who's been there, done that can tell...

My female is starting to get a round belly again - so hopefully they will spawn again.

Jenn

Sweet! I am going to bring your container back to you this weekend

JennM
07-01-2010, 5:28 PM
I hope those hatch for you. Next time maybe we need to wait a few more days...

courterbobby
07-01-2010, 5:44 PM
Yes watch them a few more days. Im sure someone will chime in an look at them and give some advice. I am going to bump the temp up to about 80 and watch them over the next couple of days and hope they hatch. If they do not hatch in the next few days i think it will be safe to say there not going too.

bobz
07-02-2010, 8:57 AM
I had mixed luck when I moved my Tailspot Blenny eggs from the display tank to the hatching tank. It seems like the eggs would take an extra day or two to hatch and the hatch was always smaller than when I left them alone. I always treid to maintain the same conditions between the tank and the hatching/rearing tanks, so I would use all the same water siphoned from the display tank to minimize the shock of even slight pH, temp, etc, changes. Just figured it made sense to eliminate as many variables as possible. Hopefully these eggs are viable and wll hatch for you. You may try increasing the rate of flow across the eggs to see if that stimulates them. Good luck!
bz

courterbobby
07-02-2010, 2:53 PM
Thanks for the advice bz. I hate to say it, but I do think this batch is done for. No hatchings last night either, and they look like they are spoiling to be honest. This was my first go round, so next time I am ready! I will bring home some h2o from the store just to make sure they are not going through and sudden swings in parameters. I just hate it! All those little guys didn't even get to see outside their egg casings.
Lets hope for a better run next time!
Thanks for all the advice guys.

JennM
07-02-2010, 3:05 PM
Bummer - but hey, it happens.

At least we learned some things from this, including how to box 'em up for transport.

With a bit of luck (and maybe some Barry White music...) we may have another batch on the way in a few days. Stay tuned...

Jenn

courterbobby
07-02-2010, 3:45 PM
I will stay tuned in. I am going to leave them in there tonight just to make sure, but I will not get my hopes up. We did learn a lot! and next time I am hoping for a better turn out. I will see you tomorrow Jenn!

JJ Ocean
07-03-2010, 10:10 PM
You'll have the best success pulling them from the male the day of the hatch. Hatch rates go way down if pulled more than 2 days early - very hard to get the aeration right for a long period. When 40% - 50% of the eyes go silver, they'll hatch that night or the next. Also, a lot of the time the hatch will be split over 2 days with the early fry being the minority, so don't pull out the tile/pipe thinking you just had a poor hatch - odds are that the rest will emerge the next night. Definitely use the water they came from next time too (as you eluded).

Best of luck!

-John

courterbobby
07-03-2010, 10:16 PM
Thanks John

JennM
07-03-2010, 10:16 PM
Well this time was a guess - we were unsure as to which day the eggs were laid (Monday when I was closed, or Tuesday before I got there). We waited a week - picked up the following Tuesday, and it was my call by eyeballing them that I thought hatch was imminent. In the past when they'd spawned, it took a week for them to hatch. The tank they were in then most likely ran a bit warmer.

I have a chiller on that system which keeps it at 78.5-79, but it can and does dip a bit lower overnight (76-77). I'm sure that factored into incubation time.

The parents look like they might be gearing up to spawn again, the female is getting a round belly again, so I'll be a bit more watchful this time. They hadn't spawned for a while before this time.

That's OK, we learned a bunch from this "failure to launch", and both Bobby and I will be better prepared if they do spawn again.

My fear with leaving them beyond Tuesday was that if they did hatch, they'd be coral food/sump fodder - since I'm not there overnight to check on them periodically.

Better luck next time :)

Jenn

JennM
07-06-2010, 3:16 PM
Figured I'd just continue this thread...

My pair spawned again today. 2 weeks since the last time. I know it was today for certain, after 11:30 AM and before 4:00 PM, as I was here this morning and there were no eggs. I left to do errands at 11:30 and returned just before 4, and lo and behold, there's a new clutch there.

Temp in the tank is 77.9 (with a chiller)... it does tend to drop a bit at night (I'll make note of that tomorrow AM, so we can track it). The eggs did develop just fine while they were here, so perhaps we can better estimate when this next round may hatch and when we ought to remove them. Bobby wants to try again, so maybe we'll have better luck this time.

Jenn

courterbobby
07-06-2010, 4:25 PM
Looking forward to another go!

JJ Ocean
07-06-2010, 5:57 PM
Jenn,

If it helps, my percs hatch in 8 days at 80 deg, 9 days at 79 deg and 10 days at 78 deg if that helps. I've never had my tank under 78. I know this because I'll actually manipulate the temp sometimes to match the hatch with my work/travel schedule. I think Occs might hatch a day earlier (going from memory with another breeder's occs compared to my percs). Occs definitely mature way faster than percs post hatch - probably 100% quicker.

Best of luck - look forward to the updates!

-John

jamescook
07-07-2010, 8:09 AM
My GSmaroons are producing every 9 days if anyone wants to try with those eggs.

JennM
07-07-2010, 8:42 AM
Morning temp: 76.0. So there's about a 2-degree swing over 24 hours (which is my chiller differential).

Jenn

jamescook
07-07-2010, 8:54 AM
that explains it. I had my gsms hatch at 5 days when the temp got to 82 and now they are 7 days at 80. temp really is powerful!

courterbobby
07-07-2010, 10:26 PM
I am going to keep them up to temp when I bring them home, it was my fear of having poached eggs that made me take that huge heater out and lead to the freezing temp. Gonna make it happen this time!

courterbobby
07-09-2010, 12:13 AM
How are the eggs looking Jenn?

JennM
07-09-2010, 5:57 AM
Looking good as of yesterday. Temp in the system was 79.1 at its peak... chiller is chugging but even our AC is having trouble keeping up with the heat outside.

I'm thinking Wed or Thurs next week, that's 8-9 days after laying? Open to suggestion there.

I haven't taken pictures because they are a bit harder to see this time, the frogspawn is more draped over them than last time and I don't want to disturb them until I have to.

Jenn

courterbobby
07-12-2010, 2:43 PM
Any updates on the eggs?

JennM
07-12-2010, 2:44 PM
They're still cooking. I haven't been by the shop today - I'm slumming at home for a change. I'm thinking Wed or Thursday?

courterbobby
07-12-2010, 2:46 PM
sweet! Can't wait!

courterbobby
07-14-2010, 1:19 PM
I hope they did not hatch out last night:D Do you think today is the day to bring them home or tomorrow?

JennM
07-14-2010, 1:24 PM
They are still there - sorry been meaning to post (busy taking calls for salt payments!)

I'm thinking they are close... it's hard to see them, that Frogspawn I swear has grown in the last couple of weeks and it "drapes" over the eggs. Papa Clown has been really busy tending to them the last couple of days, so maybe he "knows" something.

It's been 8 days now... daytime temp is 78-79... but it does go cooler at night.

It's your call - I think I'd pick them up today, tomorrow might be too late if they hatch overnight tonight, the corals and the filter will get them.

If it turns out that it's too soon - there's always next time :)

Jenn

courterbobby
07-14-2010, 1:26 PM
Okay cool. Just to make sure you close at 8pm today right?

JennM
07-14-2010, 1:27 PM
Correct.

I just went and had another look. He's really fanning them hard - almost like he's trying to make them pop open! :eek:

Jenn

courterbobby
07-14-2010, 1:28 PM
What a good daddy! I will see you later today

courterbobby
07-14-2010, 9:26 PM
Got the eggs around 8pm and they are in the rearing tank eith a bubbler and a heater. I forgot to take some shots of them. The temp is about 79-80 in the tank they are in, so I hope tonight will be the night they hatch. Eyes were pretty silver, kinda like new little dimes that just came off the press.

schwimmair
07-14-2010, 9:32 PM
Good luck Bobby!

courterbobby
07-15-2010, 2:03 AM
Thanks!

courterbobby
07-15-2010, 12:30 PM
WE HAVE LIFE! but only about 6 or 7 from my count. I have an idea why I am having such a hard time getting the eggs to hatch. I think inadequate circulation. The eggs were layed on a pvc pipe, so its kinda hard to get circulation on all of them. But is does seem like the ones that got the most circulation hatched. I have been reading through the book clownfishes, and I think that keeping the eggs moving was my problem. One of the flexible bubble wants next time?
Anyways, too small to get a pic of them, but im very excited to see these little guys!

JennM
07-15-2010, 12:36 PM
:yay:

Well if they were without circulation, it was only for a few hours - that male was aggressively fanning them all day yesterday. I guess it does make a big difference.

Can't wait to see pix!

Question - have the others just not hatched yet? I'd give it some time, some might be 'late bloomers'...

Jenn

jamescook
07-15-2010, 12:50 PM
next time you may want to try the fishbowl technique. I just place the rigid airline near the eggs no airstone. round is better for the circulation. and six is great for a first time. the more you hatch out the harder it is
good luck!

courterbobby
07-15-2010, 1:12 PM
I do have a fish bowl, but I believe I will have problems keeping the temp up in it. I have a small heater that will fit in it, but it keeps the water at 76 at its best. I am using a huge heater in that small tank to keep it at 80 constant because I can control the temp with a knob, but the smaller heater is automatic, but definitely open to techniques. The eggs still seem viable so they will get covered again tonight in hopes more will hatch.
When I took the black bag off them, they were all laying on the bottom, but quickly shot up and started chasing the rotifers in their ditzy little manner. It was amazing to see these guys start swimming for the first time.

JennM
07-15-2010, 1:18 PM
Need pictures... or video!!

Hopefully more will hatch today or tonight. But even if they don't - this time around has been better than the last attempt.

Onward and upward!

We'll see if there are more eggs next week...

Jenn

jamescook
07-15-2010, 1:26 PM
my bowl sits inside a 5g tank that heats the outside tank water and keeps the heater out of the bowl

courterbobby
07-15-2010, 2:04 PM
Good idea james! Here is a crap video. like I said too small to shoot with my cameras, so its very very blurry, but this little guy is just getting the hang of swimming and now he is paddling around with the others.
YouTube- Crap video of fry one day old

bobz
07-15-2010, 2:15 PM
i use the method james described as well... keeps the water in the bowl heated well. I also used the bubbler method when trying to hatch out the Tail-spot Blenny eggs. I would always gets less larva then if they were hatched naturally but i expected that. Baboon Science has the method perfected so you may want to PM him and see what he recommends.
BZ

JennM
07-15-2010, 2:46 PM
Crap video or not, that's the first time I've seen my pair's offspring out of the egg!

Nature is amazing!

Jenn

courterbobby
07-16-2010, 1:06 AM
Hmmm I am very perplexed. The few that hatched out were swimming around and doing their thing. I could see them learning their "hunting" techniques. So I figured i would quit watching them and watch some tv... about two hours later... no one is swimming anymore. all dead. I know it was a very small amount (maybe 7 or so), but why would they up and die? I tested ammonia in the tank and it was .025ppm.
I moved the rest of the eggs into a fish bowl and put the bowl in a larger tank with water (as james suggested). We will see if any hatch tonight, a lot of the eggs were un-viable and fell off during the transfer, but a lot still hung on there (I am assuming they are still viable based on readings out of clownfishes by Joyce D. Wilkerson

JennM
07-16-2010, 4:26 AM
I wonder why some fell off during transfer? The way the male had been fanning them, one would think that they'd have fallen off from his activity.

We're moving them by taking the coral off the piece of PVC, submerging the transport box, and moving the PVC into the transport box, that whole exercise takes place under water (no air exposure).

I don't know if this is a good suggestion or not, but it was useful when I raised seahorse fry. I kept a tiny piece of live rock in my nursery bowls (I made Kriesel bowls with airline tubing)... a small piece of rock for biological.

You could even try some Seachem Matrix.

That might avoid or reduce the ammonia. Fry and rotifers eating and pooping needs something to process waste.

Jenn

JJ Ocean
07-16-2010, 7:41 AM
The transfer sounds perfect. Some guys pull tiles and expose to air and it works for them, but your method is best. That’s not the issue. Food/starvation wasn’t the issue either based on how quick they passed.

I don’t know your exact process or setup is, but here’s my list of common fry mortality in the first 3 days (if I kill off any fry during this time; it is generally one of these):

1. Starvation is #1. That’s not your issue though
2. Water changes: always drip in via airline tubing similar to acclimating. Pouring and slow mixing never worked for me. They’re very sensitive to salinity changes and temp changes (up temp seems to be tolerated more, but down temp is more dangerous).
3. Aeration – fine aeration is needed; very soft the first 2-3 days and then increase – almost to the point you think it is not enough (i.e. wood block aeration). Large or excessive air bubbles pound and kill fry.
4. Lighting – use subdued lighting. I use very low watt flourecents and actually put a paper towel on the top glass to diffuse light until day 4. If in doubt, error on the side of not enough light.

Another key item is handling/transferring. I have never had ANY success in moving fry except by scooping fry with solid containers (preferably smooth bowls without corners) from one environment and placing that container down into the second environment and turning sideways to let the water out (no pouring). That’s for fry 0 – 50 days old. I’ve heard folks saying they move them via siphoning, netting, etc., but my experience is that those methods have killed most of those fry either immediately or within the day.

Stick with it and your figure out the formula that work for your setup. Even then though you’ll have losses from time to time. Heck, I just lost a bunch of my current hatch to a rushed water change. BTW – you can’t go wrong with Joyce’s book – 95% of what you need to know is in there. The rest is just on the job training and most of that is just figuring out how to be more efficient with your setup (not the core rearing).

Better luck next time.

-John

JennM
07-16-2010, 7:58 AM
Good information, John.

This time Bobby got 5 gallons of my system water to use. We think that might have been a problem last time - parameter shift. While usually I wouldn't suggest using "used" water, in this case it was the more sensible thing to do (params are excellent on that system too, so we weren't moving a 'problem' from point A to point B.)

Bobby (or anyone) - if you want/need limewood air stones, I have a pile of them in my "yard sale" stuff. All new in the package.. just been hanging around a long time.

The way I see it, each batch of eggs is a learning experience. They'd have ZERO chance if left in my coral system - they'd be filter fodder or coral food in no time. So even if we have a few failures before success, there's as much to be learned in the failures, as there is in the successes.

My female is getting pretty round again - I'm thinking that they will spawn again (maybe Tuesday?) so the learning can continue.

John, what do you do for biological? Or anyone else that's had success with this undertaking?

I thought maybe some Matrix... I can stick a bag in my system to start populating for the next round (I probably have some already in the sump - just never thought about it before).

If there was ammonia, that might be the problem - or one problem.

Thoughts?

Jenn

JJ Ocean
07-16-2010, 8:26 AM
I don’t do anything for biological for 30 days – only 25% - 35% water changes every 3 days. I keep an ammonia badge in the tank. If it every spikes for any reason, I’ll do a 50% - 75% water change (always dripped in). The “new” water always come from my DT and the DT water is replaced by fresh mixed water. I wouldn’t change in this situation. Get the starting water from you (like you did) and then do the water changes from Bobby’s main tank. Gradually, the fry will be changed over to Bobby’s parms from his DT.

The only deviation to the water changes is avoiding/skipping a change during the meta stage (14 days for mine). They are very sensitive around meta. I do a 50% change on day 12 and then go 6 days before the next change (another 50%). Occ’s meta earlier than percs, but you’ll get to that timing down the road. I also only keep the fry in about 5 gallons of water (half full in my 10G) until post meta and then I gradually up the volume over the next 3 water changes. The lower 5g volume makes it easier to keep rotifer/NHBS densities high.

Back on the biological … at day 30, I personally transfer mine to a grow out system that has a protein skimmer, ozone, carbon fluidized bed and LR filtration. Bobby – in your case, I’d add an old school fresh water sponge filter powered by an air pump, day 45-60 convert that to be powered by a very small powerhead instead of the air pump or a hang-on small filter (seed either filter media from your DT in advance). You just have to cover the intakes in either method with pre filter sponge to keep them from getting sucked in. Clean those filters every other day or else you risk clogging. If you can up to a 20g tank as part of that – all the better. That system with more standard water changes should carry you through grow out.

-John

jamescook
07-16-2010, 8:32 AM
just shows it ain't easy and there are lots of ways to do it. I pull the tile exposing to air with no problem. I've never used an air stone in the bowl. the best success has been with lots of green and rotis. I can't see my fry the first 2 days. I do partial clean up wc and just pour in the new water. I start diluting the brood tank water that i use in the bowl immediately with a liter of algae at 1.015. I've transfered fry by cup and syphon and now I just pick up the bowl and put it in the next tank and gently pour them in to the rec tank at day 10 or so.
you'll find out what works for you if you just keep trying

JennM
07-16-2010, 9:16 AM
Question...do you think that the extra density of phytoplankton helps maintain water quality?

I have never tried rearing clowns, but 9 or so years ago I was trying to rear seahorse fry (H. reidi, pelagic from hatching).

What I'm reading here as far as trial and error goes, seems to have a lot in common with that, even though the needs of the fry are somewhat different.

I did a lot of trial and error stuff - mostly through trying what others had tried, and then switching when I found somebody else's method seemed to have better success, then I used my own logic to try to refine methods, etc.

Once I got to building the shop, I dropped my efforts because I no longer had the time/energy to continue... but I digress...

When I first started, people suggested sterile tanks etc., and later on it seemed that through many people's experience, that the greener the water, the better the success rate, and it was speculated that perhaps the presence of the phtyo, actively growing, was helping to take up the nutrients that occurred from the waste that the fry produced.

I never got that far into it, in the long term, but I did find that once I worried less about "sterile" and used greener water, survivor numbers went up.

Could also be that more phyto makes the rotifers (or in my case, bbs when they were old enough to feed), more nutritious, and as such, made the fry stronger/grow faster.

Maybe a bit of both?

Thoughts?

Jenn

jamescook
07-16-2010, 9:21 AM
I think it is a bit of both. Most larval tanks aren't lit enough to actively grow algae, but surely if it is alive it's taking up some stink. but keeping the rotis stuffed at all times is key to fry nutrition.
I'm definitely not of the sterile mind. i feel my tanks with macros and inverts asap

JennM
07-16-2010, 9:42 AM
No, sterile turns out not to be the way to go, although in early seahorse breeding it was the suggested way to go. Then Neil Garrick-Maidment (in the UK) said that he did better by creating a bit of a bacterial "soup" for his fry. I believe he was using seawater he collected himself, but added mysis or something to create a little bit of "rot" but not enough to foul the water. He balanced that with partial water changes, I think. It's been a while since I read anything current on the subject and my memory is a bit fuzzy but I seem to recall that his suggestion of having some amount of bacterial activity actually helped the fry's immune systems develop.

Sort of the old, "You have to eat a peck of dirt before you die" notion. Keeping them in a sterile environment may be OK in the short term, but once they get out into the germy real world, they aren't equipped to fend off disease. I think that's fairly sound logic, if it's done correctly.

With pelagic seahorse fry, a big challenge was keeping them away from the surface, otherwise they'd gulp air and get stuck there, unless they could "fart" the air bubble out again. The use of a Kriesel type bowl setup, helped keep the water moving in a circular current, and the benefit was two-fold. It kept the fry off the surface, and helped concentrate them in the middle of the water column, and in addition it helped keep the food concentrated there too, so they had more access to a denser supply of food.

I used to light my bowls from the side, shining into the middle, to attract the bbs to the middle as well, and that also kept the phyto growing until it was consumed, or removed with partial water changes. I don't know if that would be beneficial with clownfish fry, but it's an idea too.

There were no airstones in my Kriesels, just an airline tube siliconed halfway around the curved edge of the bowl, that's what made the water circulate. As each bubble moved to the surface, it moved some water with it. I'd adjust the air flow with a valve, to get just the right "speed". I had tried the sponge filter route in 10-g tanks, but the fry kept getting themselves jammed up underneath it. Tried a divider to keep them away from the filter, and they'd jam themselves up along the edge of the divider... talk about frustrating... the bowls worked best.

I never thought of using the bowls inside another tank of water for temperature control... who knows, I might have had MUCH better results. If I ever get to that point again... :)

Jenn

JJ Ocean
07-16-2010, 9:54 AM
Jenn – I definitely think there are a lot of similarities.

On adding phyto to the larvae tank (tinting), that was one of those big “ah-ha’s” I had in my clown rearing journey. I had a very noticeable decrease in mortality. It really impacted the 2-5 day area though; not day 1.

I think LIVE phyto does have some beneficial water quality attributes, but the “instant algae” (dead cells) that are being used more commonly today, does not have water quality benefits. Actually if overdosed, I feel it can actually pollute the tank. Dosed right though, it takes a lot of maintenance out of the process.

The 2 biggest lifts I attributed to phyto tinting have been:

1. Ensuring all rots/nhbs are nutritious. A starved rot has virtually no nutritional value – the energy is in their algae filled stomachs. I found it very hard to “dose” rots accurately, so I error on adding too many. If you have too many, they don’t get eaten with full bellies w/o available food. Tinting overcomes the slight over feeding pit falls. I think early on I had starvation deaths due to fry with bellies full of starved rots. That said, I also think if you add way too many rots, you run the risk of oxygen depletion – rots do consume oxygen. Again, experience dials that dosage in. I error on the side of slightly over feeding and have pretty much gone to full co-culturing rots in the larval tanks.
2. The other benefit, but less proven is that tinted water seems to help larvae target rots in the early days of life. I think this is a little more speculative than the nutritional aspect, but seems reasonable. It also helps with the lighting issues I mentioned earlier.

Anyway, what you and James have said is very true … trial and error is the game. Get opinions and figure out what works for you. One thing that Joyce and others swear by is covering the tanks for the first several days. I don’t do that anymore. I’ve done both cover & non-cover from hatch to hatch and the mortality rates don’t change for me. That might be in part to the tinting and low light levels I use, but not doing it is one less thing I have to do.

-John

JennM
07-16-2010, 11:56 AM
Curious - why cover the tanks? Not doubting that it's beneficial - just wondering why that is, or what's the science, or theory behind it?

Funny talking about gut-loading - I just had a call a little while ago from a friend who owns a pet store, asking what she should gut-load some brine with... and I told her that live phyto is best, dead will do in a pinch (if no live is available) but don't overdo it and we both said in stereo, "because too much will foul the water"... :)

Again I'm comparing apples to bowling balls a bit but I'm running with my own experience with seahorses here - and we've seen some of the info is relevant to clowns, but not necessarily all - but I'll fling this out there....

A HUGE challenge with seahorse fry was over-feeding, but not for the reasons that are typical in an over-feeding situation. (IE may or may not apply to clown fry, or anything other than syngnathid fry)... Seahorses and their relatives have very short digestive tracts. So "dwell time" in the gut is imperative for survival of the fry, so that they can actually digest their food. Big mistake I made early on was too much food, and constant availability. They ate like little pigs, but I still had crazy mortality.

Then I actually observed a fry defecating a live baby brine shrimp. And another, and another. I really couldn't believe my eyes... but what was happening was they were eating SO much, that the BBS was literally being pushed through so fast that it didn't even have time to die, let alone be digested.

I changed to timed feedings, feeding less, so while there was always a bit of food in the bowls (can't get all of it out without taking great impractical pain to do so)... if there was time in between feedings when food was more scarce, the food could actually digest and the nutrients be absorbed.

I don't know if that's even an issue with clowns, or what their digestive system is like, just thought I'd put it out there.

Jenn

courterbobby
07-16-2010, 12:50 PM
Thanks guys for the conversations! Really interesting reading. I am not familiar with the kressile system and will have to do some research on them. Food was not the issue I am sure of it because I had plenty of rotifers in the tank and could see them trying to eat them. Temp was the issue I am guessing. The temp went from 80 to 78 several times during the day, so I put the rest of the eggs in the bowl in a larger tank using a bath method to keep the temp.
I have in fact woke up to found that the rest of the eggs were fallen off, which is a real bummer. I know this is a sensitive process, but I am still learning and this is just a learning experience for me.
I do keep live phyto in the tanks for the rotifers to consume, but I probable did not have enough to deal with ammonia and such going on in there.
Light was one ambient lighting. I have my phyto and rots growing next to he rearing tank with the sides blacked out of course. Suppose to make for better hunting skills because the fry can target food better against a black background than a clear one? Also, in the ocean they only have light coming from the top and not all around them.
Jenn, if anyone else has any interest in trying to rear the eggs, by all means give them a shot. If not I will be more than happier to try again. We are now getting to the phase where I am refining how I am doing things.
The reason I am guessing I lost most of the eggs is improper circulation on them. Again they are laid on a piece of pvc (maybe a 3 or 4 in piece) so the eggs are on a rounded surface and one rigid tubing is not enough to keep them all moving. So we will have to find a solution to that as well.
While artificially incubating the eggs until they hatch, what is the proper amount of flow that should be on them. I can't seem to find a specific answer. Should they be batted like crazy like the male did all the time? Would a pulsing movement, like a bubble a second would produce be a good for aeration? Should I invest in a flexible bubble wand to wrap around the pvc to keep them all moving or should I try an air stone?
Thanks guys!

JJ Ocean
07-16-2010, 1:55 PM
Jenn – Bobby answered the covering tank sides reason – help in targeting food & eliminating sideways light. Again – that’s the theory, my personal experience shows no difference.

On the overfeeding, I know several clown breeders that say they’ve had clowns literally rupture their stomachs due to overeating, but I’ve never witnessed that. They’ve certainly had the food amount to do it too. However, what I do now to be a very legitimate issue related to digestion is brine shrimp eggs capsules being ingested and causing death due to the fact that they can’t pass the shell. I only buy decapsulated eggs, so I’ve never personally witnessed that. I have enough other ways to kill fry w/o adding shells to the list!:confused2: Folks have also talked about clowns “choking” on nhbs if they are introduced too early … again, never witnessed that either (and I wonder if choking is even possible with fish; mouth obstruction maybe).

Very interesting and very crazy regarding seahorse digestion … definitely not an issue shared by clowns. To be honest, once clowns meta they are almost just like an adult clown in every aspect except size (and the fact that they can literally be scared to death by being transferred, aggressive bottom cleaning, etc.)

Bobby – on aerating the eggs, you should be pretty aggressive with the flow (contrary to how the aeration should be with the fry) and at a rate that you probably think is too much. I also wouldn’t use large bubbles straight from a rigid tube. I’ve always gone with a normal air stone. It has been some time since I’ve done it though. My pair one day stopped laying on their tile about 3 years ago for LR and won’t go back to the tile. So mine sit with the male the whole way now.

-John

JennM
07-16-2010, 1:59 PM
Ah yes, shells. I used to decap my own, so that wasn't an issue. Back then they didn't have pre-decapped ones, we had to get out the Clorox and DIY :)

Thanks for pointing out the hunting/feeding bit - I missed that the first time.

Jenn

jamescook
07-16-2010, 2:03 PM
I decapsulate brine, but have unfortunately had 5 day old fry overeat bbs and pop. the clarks overeat and the gsms are too small so it's best to delay bbs til 6 or 7 days

JennM
07-16-2010, 2:49 PM
Wow, so instead of just 'processing' uneaten food to quickly, they pop... (I'd prefer the former if it was a choice!).

So in your experience is it better to have timed feedings, or constant availability of abundant food, or something in between, say, constant availability of food but not at a high density?

Jenn

Shrimpy Brains
07-16-2010, 4:09 PM
Not alot of deviation from what has been discussed, but here's what works for me. :D

I used to pull my eggs and hatch them. Now, I just wait for them to hatch and siphon out the fry.

I put them in a goldfish bowl with flat sides. A kressel(sp?) like Jenn described above. Samething exactly with an airline about 4 inches up one of the rounded sides. Maybe 1 or 2 bubbles per second. Just enough to circulate the rotifers and green water, but the fry can swim against it. Most will just swim stationary into the flow and the food will be brought to them.

This whole bowl is placed in a 10g tank filled a little lower than the goldfish bowl. Heater in 10g helps maintain temps in fry bowl. I keep the temp about 80 degrees, as I have read the higher temps wil help them get to meta faster. Mine seem to hit meta around day 10.

During this time, I feed rotifers twice a day, but enough so the fry can eat constantly. I also keep the water green enough that I can barely see the fry.
The nice thing about the goldfish bowl and the circulation, is detritous will collect in the bottom lip and can be syphoned out daily without too much concern about sucking out fry. I change maybe 1 cup of water daily. Replace with water from my growout tank (a 10g set up with live rock, macros, heater and a cheap filter) and add fresh to growout.

I stock rotifers heavy, but when I start adding bbs, I feed less of these. This is where I have read(but never witnessed) that fry can eat too much and pop, as the bbs are so much larger than the rotifers.

I start adding bbs about day 3, a small amount twice daily, along with plenty of rotifers to eat in between. Around day 10, I quit with the rotifers and continue the bbs. I also start adding things like frozen cyclopeeze, frozen rotifers, dried cyclopeeze, crushed flake food or anything else I can make small enough for them to eat.



Oh, I have only raised Perculas, I guess it varies a little for different Clowns. Hope this helps and makes sense! Amy

JennM
07-16-2010, 4:12 PM
Excellent info, Amy!

Looks like some of my old techniques for seahorses, along with some newer/better ideas, combine to make fry-raising a lot easier, or at least, predictable.

Makes me wonder if I'd have had better success using the Kriesel-bowl-in-tank method instead of just room-temp bowls... :)

Jenn

Shrimpy Brains
07-16-2010, 4:19 PM
The bowl in tank is great, cuz it makes it easier to maintain temps.

Also, I forgot to mention, I leave the light on 24/7 until they reach meta. A dim light. If it is too bright, they will stand on their heads on the bottom and if it's not bright enough, they will stay at the very top. You want it just right, so they stay (mostly) in the middle of tank. I just have a small table top lamp sitting about 3 foot above the tank. Seems to work well.

courterbobby
07-18-2010, 7:21 PM
So I got some of the 5 gallon water containers and rigged one up upside down to bubble the nanno algae and one sitting upright to keep rotifers in.
Thanks for the info shrimpy brains! I did not know if they needed a regular light cycle when they first hatch or not. So next time, when I see some have hatched should I remove them into another bowl to avoid the rough bubbling while i wait for the rest to hatch?
Oh and I think I am getting close to having a breeding pair or two too! The clowns I recently bought with the biocube I purchased from Adam have been shaking their butts at each other for the past couple of days, and my b/w clowns are starting to get aggressive, though only the male is shaking his rump at the female with the female like "what are you doing?" hehe

JennM
07-18-2010, 7:25 PM
Get ready, Bobby. They spawned again today!

I watched it happen for a while. They are 2 days earlier in spawning this time.

Jenn

courterbobby
07-18-2010, 7:27 PM
Well sweet! We are totally more prepared than the past two go rounds!

Shrimpy Brains
07-18-2010, 9:31 PM
.
Thanks for the info shrimpy brains! I did not know if they needed a regular light cycle when they first hatch or not. So next time, when I see some have hatched should I remove them into another bowl to avoid the rough bubbling while i wait for the rest to hatch?



They need complete darkness for hatching. They will usually hatch about 1 hour after lights out. I generally wait about 2 hours and check. If you shine light on them too early. It can postpone the hatch.

Ususally they are all hatched after the 2 hours. I have heard any remaining ones might hatch the next night. If you feel the need to continue the rough bubbling past this, I would recommend removing the fry.

courterbobby
07-18-2010, 10:25 PM
Ok cool. They do get complete darkness for hatching. I cover them with a very think black trash bag, no light in what so ever and I do not take it off till the next morning when I wake up.

JennM
07-26-2010, 5:32 PM
It is now Day 8 since the last spawning event which was Sunday, July 18.

I stopped by this afternoon to check on things, and took 2 pictures of the eggs.

Bobby - tomorrow maybe? If they don't hatch tonight... last time I believe you collected them on Day 8, had some hatch and the rest not...

I'm heading home when the rain lets up but if you/others think tonight should be collection night, I can arrange to meet you here this evening.

OR we can wait til tomorrow and see... it might be too late, but if so, then we'll have established that Day 8 is the best day to collect.

Jenn

courterbobby
07-26-2010, 5:57 PM
Jenn,
I have no problem collecting them tonight, though it might be a little later before I can get out there. If they hatch tonight I would hate to miss them, but the upside is we will be able to better establish what day they should be collected on.
I have cut a piece of acrylic rod to fit inside the critter keeper so they can be safely transported without the fear of bumping into the sides of the container. Its basically a rod that will go in the center of the pvc from the bottom of the container to the top, so the pvc can rotate around the rod, but keep a safe distance from the sides.
They look ready to me, and I feel like I want to hold off till tomorrow, but I do not want it to be too late. I just don't want it to be a inconvenience to you since your gracious enough to let me have them.

JennM
07-26-2010, 7:08 PM
I'm home at last... and I'm beat... 2 days at GA Tech getting my daughter signed up to be a rocket scientist (well, Aerospace Engineer - she might be a rocket scientist).

Let's gamble on tomorrow. I have to go in early to do some stuff (probably around 10) so I'll report then. If they don't hatch tonight, we'll figure it out from there. And if we miss them we'll know for sure that Day 8 is "the day".

Jenn

courterbobby
07-26-2010, 7:10 PM
Great! Ill be in contact with you tomorrow to see if we still have them.

JennM
07-27-2010, 12:53 PM
The eggs are still there today :)

There are definitely fewer than yesterday, however the majority still seem to be there.

Both parents are fanning more aggressively today. I wonder if that's a way to "help" them hatch?

Bobby - I'd say today's the day to get them.

Jenn

courterbobby
07-27-2010, 2:22 PM
Yep definitely had some hatchers last night. Ill be out to get the rest of them today.
Thanks

JennM
07-27-2010, 2:26 PM
I think you still have the critter keeper so be sure to bring that :)

Jenn

courterbobby
07-27-2010, 2:28 PM
Yes I do. I have everything sitting on table ready to go.

Shrimpy Brains
07-27-2010, 5:04 PM
:yay:Yeah! Good luck!

courterbobby
07-27-2010, 8:36 PM
:yay:Yeah! Good luck!

Thanks!

courterbobby
07-27-2010, 8:39 PM
I picked up the eggs about 8pm today and I have then in a fish bowl inside a larger tank to keep the temp constant. 80 degrees to be exact. I have harvested rotifers and have them in there and I am also dripping some green water in. I have 2 airline tube strategically placed to get optimum circulation over all the eggs.
Once the green water is finished dripping in, I will cover them and hope for some hatchlings tomorrow!

courterbobby
07-28-2010, 1:31 AM
Alright!
So lights have been off for several hours now and I could not help myself from peeking (assuming if they are going to hatch tonight they would have by now). To my surprise, a lot of them have seemed to hatch (the ones I could keep moving well enough that got a direct hit from the current made by the bubbles) The ones that did not get a lot of current did not hatch, but a bunch of empty egg shells hanging on that piece of PVC!
Im so excited and cannot wait till morning to see these guys better. I will have light from the window wake them up in the morning then I will turn on their (very dim) led light.
Also, I turned the bubbler down to about one bubble a second so it would not shake them up. I hope they all make (it!!), but I will be happy if I can get at least one of these guys through meta.
Ill keep ya posted and pics when I wake up tomorrow!
:yay:

JennM
07-28-2010, 1:34 AM
Woohoo!

For once my insomnia was timed well ;) Just happened on here at the right time to see this post!

Jenn

courterbobby
07-28-2010, 1:35 AM
HA I am an insomniac every night! and this time its paying off for me as well

courterbobby
07-28-2010, 9:07 AM
GRRRRR! I wake up this morning to a 100% mortality rate! What am I doing wrong here? Why would they all die? I do not understand.....

Like I said, they are in a fish bowl sitting inside a 10g aquarium to keep temp constant, 80 degrees. I added green water through a dip last night (about 1 drop a second, maybe less). Also, I added rotifers last night also, because I usually do not wake up till later.
I checked last night, and the majority of them have hatched, so I turned the pump down to one bubble a second. Now, they are laying on the bottom. They almost look white, kinda like non viable eggs only hatched. So, what are we to learn here? Are we looking at some type of fungal infection, should I have dipped the eggs in a formalin or para-guard solution? This seems to be the only description in the "clownfishes" book that describes this condition, but a book can't teach you what an experience breeder can. This is the last batch I am picking up from Jenn, until september at least because I am going on vacation for a week and will not have the time to get any guys to the point of leaving them in some else's care.
Funny enough, the micro brittle stars are still alive and I would have suspected a water quality issue to kill them also
Here are some pictures of my set up (I think its a 1.5 gallon) bowl inside a 10 gallon aquarium
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/died/IMG_1774.jpg
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/died/IMG_1773.jpg
Dead fry in petri dish this morning (white dots on tray are from the micro algae dish)
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/died/IMG_1775.jpg
Rotifer culture (feed with nanno and tetra algae as well as roti-diet)
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/died/IMG_1772.jpg
Micro algae culture (big one is nannochloropsis and coke bottle is Tetraselmis I feed these to rotifers at a rate of 75% nanno and 25% tetra)
http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy13/courterbobby/died/IMG_1771.jpg

JennM
07-28-2010, 9:27 AM
Bummer :( I was hoping this time would work for you.

No answers here... I don't think infection is the cause... hopefully someone else will chime in with answers.

Bud (Budsreef) just left here - we were talking about it. He suggested I get a larvae trap for the next batch, so I'm going to see about getting one of those.

My pair looks like they will spawn again, so I'll be looking for a taker on the next batch.

Jenn

jamescook
07-28-2010, 9:33 AM
sorry man
I wish i had a definite answer for you. it's environment, not nutrition at this stage. I can guess the water flow (bubbles) could change. you are trying to get the water to rotate and keep the fry off the bottom. a rigid line 1/3 off the bottom, steady bubbles much more than 1 per second. i'm not crazy about that bowl. the round flat sided doesn't have the foot area to trap the flow.
I know it sux, but you are getting closer and i'm sure you'll get it figured out.
I've never dipped my eggs for fungal treatment, but some breeders always do

courterbobby
07-28-2010, 10:10 AM
Im not crazy about that bowl either to say the least, but I could not find one with the flat sides and I was using that one to for brine shrimp. The rate at which I turned the bubbles down to was low, but I had two airline tubes running in them at the same speed though probably still not enough. Trial and error with a lot of help from you guys! I really do appreciate all the help that was given through this whole process. I would say around 75% of the eggs that were collect hatched last night.
Jenn and I have learned quite a bit about rearing larva. We now know when eggs should be collected (day 9 after the initial spawn from her clowns). Also, the eggs should be kept in a decent flow on airing on the side of too much because the larva that got the most flow hatched. I would have to say I had the bubbler at a moderate stream to move them around randomly and not just pulse. A bowl (with flat sides) is better than a box, and temperatures should remain as constant as possible. Also, a good book will help out a lot.
I will be looking around to find a flat sided bowl for next go round so I can have a kressile system going.

I wish the next person best of luck with these eggs! and hope they find this thread very helpful. I will continue my micro and rotifer cultures because I feed them to my tanks, so if anyone is in need of a started culture they can hit me up for some.

Shrimpy Brains
07-28-2010, 5:23 PM
:sad: Sorry! I have only a couple of possible thoughts. Not saying I'm right about any of them.

The Clownfish will normally hatch about 1 hour after lights out. I normally wait about 2 or 3 hours after lights out. At that time, I move fry to the 1g fish bowl. I hatch out a liittle different, but normally have 100 percent hatch by then. My thoughts are that any unhatched eggs either will not hatch or at least won't till the following night.
With your situation, I reccomend just keeping the hatched fry and discarding the unhatched or move to aother place to give them a chance the following night.
The reason I say this, is I go ahead at this point and turn on the dim light and set my circulation(watching the fry to determine the proper flow and light) I do not wait till morning.
I also, think the pvc should be removed as soon as possible. Many breeders believe that plastic can host bad bacteria and fungus, etc.

My second thought is, your rotifer container looks too clear. I keep mine much greener to insure the rotifers have plenty to eat. I don't believe the fry would have starved overnight, but am wondering if it's possible you introduced dead rotifers to your fry tank.

My last thought is, your micro algae is too green. I think you are supposed to put half in another container and add fresh salt water to both bottles long before it gets that thick. I am def. not an expert on this, so not positive. I have only tried micro algae a couple of times, and the longest I kept it was about 6 months. Now I just use DT's. :D

Anyway, I don't know if any of this contributed to your problem. Just my random thoughts, FWIW.

I guess it's also possible that Jenn's Clowns are just too old to produce good eggs! lol

courterbobby
07-28-2010, 7:53 PM
Thanks for the input and I value it very much.


With your situation, I reccomend just keeping the hatched fry and discarding the unhatched or move to aother place to give them a chance the following night.

I have thought of that same thing.

I also, think the pvc should be removed as soon as possible. Many breeders believe that plastic can host bad bacteria and fungus, etc.

I have read about this, and that why I suspected fungal, not that there is anything wrong with Jenn's water. Just a concern I have read about.

My second thought is, your rotifer container looks too clear. I keep mine much greener to insure the rotifers have plenty to eat. I don't believe the fry would have starved overnight, but am wondering if it's possible you introduced dead rotifers to your fry tank.

Yes, you have a picture just before feeding my rotifers. It is possible that I have introduced dead rotifers into the fry tank along with live ones, but I am able to keep the culture alive. I only harvest every three days, and that keeps the density of the rotifers thick.

My last thought is, your micro algae is too green. I think you are supposed to put half in another container and add fresh salt water to both bottles long before it gets that thick. I am def. not an expert on this, so not positive. I have only tried micro algae a couple of times, and the longest I kept it was about 6 months. Now I just use DT's. :D

It looks really dark green because of the camera flash it is actually lighter than it looks. I do not have a density measuring stick for it, but it is not as dark as the picture looks.

Anyway, I don't know if any of this contributed to your problem. Just my random thoughts, FWIW.

Thanks

I guess it's also possible that Jenn's Clowns are just too old to produce good eggs! lol
Hehe I think not, but good try:)

pancake
07-28-2010, 8:10 PM
good luck with the little ones.

JennM
07-28-2010, 8:13 PM
Hey, Shrimpy... you dissin' my clowns?!

They are still young at 8. In 10 years they might be "menopausal"... but not now - they are in their prime!

Jenn

JJ Ocean
07-28-2010, 9:37 PM
Booby - here's my .02

Your issue is definitely environment - the fry are dying way too quick.

My bet is 1 of 2 things (maybe both). 1. Not enough aeration and they are asphyxiating. 2. The green water you are dripping in is messing up the water quality (salinity, ph, ammonia, nitrite or nitrates could be way off in your GW).

I think some type of bacteria/fungus is a very distant 3rd.

Here's what I would do to limit the variables:

Let them hatch and pull the pvc out with whatever eggs are left (minimize fungus/bacteria variable). Aerate the water with an air stone - decent amount flow. Larger bubbles are more damaging when they hit a small fry and smaller bubbles generate better O2 saturation. You might kill a few if you over aerate, but no way you kill them all (error on the side of too much air for now). Don't add any rots or GW at all until morning. For reference, I don't ever do that until morning anyway. Larvae don't feed at night, rots consume O2 and GW does nothing at night w/ no rots. Let the new fry have a couple hours of stability.

Do your rots in the morning/evening and go a day w/o any GW. Day 2, do your rots and just tint the water a very tiny bit. I bet you'll keep most of your fry to this point.

From there, just keep going. Get your first hatch under your belt and then try dosing the GW on the next one. BTW - I used to never tint my larvae tanks with GW and raised quite a few. My numbers went up with tinting, but rule out a couple variables first before bring GW into it.

Again, just my thoughts.

-John

courterbobby
07-28-2010, 9:56 PM
Thanks John. Will do next time. The reason I went ahead and added is because I usually don't get up till after 12pm (I'm a major night owl), but I will rule out a couple variables. I did harvest my algae today, but I saved some to test, so I will get that testing done tonight and post the results. Maybe I was getting ahead of myself, reading all the posts and such and probably just over doing and thinking the whole thing. I really need to get out and see some of y'alls setup's because I am interested in keeping this an on going thing, but I am one of those people who like to have things down to a science, where I know what will work and what won't, and a lot of times I like to try and figure things out on my own (being as I am so independent and do not rely on other very often).
When I start back up again, I will take it one step at a time and slowly add variables in next time to get a feel of how to get to where I can actually raise them.

Everyone's thoughts are welcome :D

JJ Ocean
07-28-2010, 10:17 PM
Keep at it. I think you are just a little off on something and then you'll make some big strides. BTW - it just hit me that the video I just posted in my Onyx thread in this forum has a real good shot of my airstone. If you look at that, you can see my air flow. Even though it is day 3, it is the same airflow I use at day 1. Try to run yours close to that. Don't focus on the color of my tank (just tinted it at 7pm). I'll turn up the air on day 5 when I start NHBS. They seem to consume more O2.

Just PM me if you ever want to see what I'm running (I'm real close to Imagine/Jenn). Definitely not the best setup for clown breeding, but it works for me.

-John

Shrimpy Brains
07-28-2010, 11:12 PM
Hey, Shrimpy... you dissin' my clowns?!

They are still young at 8. In 10 years they might be "menopausal"... but not now - they are in their prime!

Jenn


Sorry! :sad: I had rambled on for quite awhile and just thought I'd throw in a little tease! :D

Believe me, if I lived a little closer, I would take you up on your next batch. Heck, if we get real lucky and you have some due to hatch on a weekend, I would love to give it a try!

courterbobby
07-29-2010, 12:12 AM
Keep at it. I think you are just a little off on something and then you'll make some big strides. BTW - it just hit me that the video I just posted in my Onyx thread in this forum has a real good shot of my airstone. If you look at that, you can see my air flow. Even though it is day 3, it is the same airflow I use at day 1. Try to run yours close to that. Don't focus on the color of my tank (just tinted it at 7pm). I'll turn up the air on day 5 when I start NHBS. They seem to consume more O2.

Just PM me if you ever want to see what I'm running (I'm real close to Imagine/Jenn). Definitely not the best setup for clown breeding, but it works for me.

-John

Ill keep that in mind. I will be heading back out to Imagine Ocean this weekend to take Jenn's critter container back to her, so I might see if I have some time to swing by

Sorry! :sad: I had rambled on for quite awhile and just thought I'd throw in a little tease! :D

Believe me, if I lived a little closer, I would take you up on your next batch. Heck, if we get real lucky and you have some due to hatch on a weekend, I would love to give it a try!

Do it!

JennM
07-29-2010, 4:30 AM
Sorry! :sad: I had rambled on for quite awhile and just thought I'd throw in a little tease! :D


Haha I know you were funnin'!

Female is gravid again... if they spawn by Friday....you might get the next batch. They were 12 days last time, so we'll see.

Jenn

JennM
08-01-2010, 10:16 AM
I think they will spawn again today. Someone has contacted me for the next batch, so we'll go that route if it works out.

They were cleaning the PVC madly yesterday, and this morning the female's ovipositor is protruding again so I expect that they will get busy today. I'll post an update later.

Jenn

JennM
08-01-2010, 12:23 PM
Yep, like clockwork. Came back to the shop just before 1, they were busy cleaning the PVC but no eggs. Looked again a few minutes later, a handful of eggs. She's laying them 2 at a time. :)

Jenn

JennM
08-01-2010, 12:52 PM
Scott took a few seconds of video :)


YouTube- clowns080110.3GP

courterbobby
08-01-2010, 1:42 PM
Ahhh she is just being careful! making sure everyone gets on there right! I am bring the critter container back to you today