View Full Version : Buffered Sodium Ascorbate!


mikesommers
06-25-2010, 5:56 PM
Anyone out there dose vitamin c as a regular item? I started about 2 weeks ago due to some minor issues with my Hippo tang. He also has some scars from HLLE that he incountered about a year ago. I am so impressed with the turn out on it:up::up::up:! Thanks for the great info from Simon and looking hard to find a buffered version of it. I think this should be in everyones maintenance regimen. Just thought I would share this. Its amazing what a little vitamin c can do.

coolsurf
06-25-2010, 6:07 PM
Hmmm. Sounds interesting. I add AminOmega at every meal but this vitamin C thing sounds good. Where do you get the buffered version and whats the ratio? Thanks!

mikesommers
06-25-2010, 6:36 PM
Hmmm. Sounds interesting. I add AminOmega at every meal but this vitamin C thing sounds good. Where do you get the buffered version and whats the ratio? Thanks!

I bought it from Amazon. Here.
1 teaspoon per 100 gallons 1x a week.
The color of all my fish has became so bright! The ph is 7.1. With such a small dose I have not seen any ph issues at all. I do not have a digital meter to read ph live so I cant tell you if there is any kind of swing upon dosing. I will say that the SPS do not show any stress when dosing. They have picked up more color. I give it a complete :up:. Once again Simon gave me the info. He has been using it for quite some time. Really helps fish naturally fight off disease on there own. IMO thats the way it should be. Its just plain healthy, vitamin C is a hard vitamin to get from food alone.

weaglereefer
06-25-2010, 7:40 PM
I used it when I had some zoa issues. Perked them right up. I haven't used it since, but might pick it up again if it's just 1tsp per week.

AndyMan
06-25-2010, 7:42 PM
link no workie

weaglereefer
06-25-2010, 7:44 PM
Andy, I can bring you some in a baggie if I make it to the BBQ meet. That'll look great...a bag of white powder right in front of the police, lol. Feel free to slip me a roll of Monopoly money to complete the effect.

coolsurf
06-25-2010, 7:47 PM
For some reason I can't get the link to bring me there either...even after I searched it and found it. I posted here but it siad the page was broken when I tried my own link...?

weaglereefer
06-25-2010, 7:49 PM
Are you logged in or anything?

AndyMan
06-25-2010, 7:50 PM
Andy, I can bring you some in a baggie if I make it to the BBQ meet. That'll look great...a bag of white powder right in front of the police, lol. Feel free to slip me a roll of Monopoly money to complete the effect.and I'll give you some RKE molex switch connectors and cripms in a nice tin foil package :D

coolsurf
06-25-2010, 7:50 PM
Not to their site...here's the link I posted...

Amazon.com: buffered vitamin c

coolsurf
06-25-2010, 7:52 PM
If I search out buffered vitamin c on Amazon, it takes me to the page.

gnashty
06-25-2010, 10:06 PM
which one is the best to use? just any of the buffered powders right?

thanks for the tip

mikesommers
06-25-2010, 10:56 PM
You want it to be only vitamin C buffered. No additives.
Here is the company that ships it. (http://www.allhealthtrends.com/nutribiotic-sodium-ascorbate.html)

I have no idea what the issue is with the links but this is on the side of my bottle.

1-866-724-1777
www.allhealthtrends.com

Sodium Ascorbate 100% Buffered vitamin c

Its very cheap. 8oz/227grams for like $16.00 shipped.

AndyMan
06-25-2010, 11:13 PM
I have no idea what the issue is with the links but this is on the side of my bottle.I DO.. it's not a
_ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ (and anyone that knows one of my favorite peeves can fill in the 2 missing words that are related to the largest search engine on the 'net) :lol2:

mikesommers
06-25-2010, 11:50 PM
I DO.. it's not a
_ _ _ _ _ _ - _ _ (and anyone that knows one of my favorite peeves can fill in the 2 missing words that are related to the largest search engine on the 'net) :lol2:

I can't figure the words out. I have been atempting for about 20 min! :lol2:

AndyMan
06-26-2010, 12:22 AM
I can't figure the words out. I have been atempting for about 20 min! :lol2:Am not goin there, ping Ansley and ask what my favorite peeve is... he'll set ya straight

Maybe even dave (acroholic) as well

:yay:

LilRobb
06-26-2010, 1:16 AM
Am not goin there, ping Ansley and ask what my favorite peeve is... he'll set ya straight

Maybe even dave (acroholic) as well

:yay:

I know what you mean - but I can assure you that is not the reason why links don't work...

Kirru
06-26-2010, 3:14 AM
Something like this?

Amazon.com: Vitamin C 1000 mg Buffered Powder Non-Acidic: Health & Personal Care

or this?

Amazon.com: Source Naturals Sodium Ascorbate Buffered C Crystals: Health & Personal Care


if neither of them too, how bout i get a direct link to it.. i'd really like to try it out.. of course i'd prolly do half of the dose stated earlier

weaglereefer
06-26-2010, 3:23 AM
Somewhere in this thread, you can find a link to the stuff I got. There should be a coupon for $5 off a first time purchase from some herbal place in CA. Basically made for free Priority s/h.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1602494&highlight=vitamin+c

Assault
06-26-2010, 3:45 AM
Be careful, what works in one tank may not work in another, totally different set of conditions. If you can't test for it, don't put it in, is one of my reefing rules, so you might wanna start off less than the recommended amount and run plenty tests.

mikesommers
06-26-2010, 9:03 AM
You want it to be only vitamin C buffered. No additives.
Here is the company that ships it. (http://www.allhealthtrends.com/nutribiotic-sodium-ascorbate.html)

I have no idea what the issue is with the links but this is on the side of my bottle.

1-866-724-1777
www.allhealthtrends.com

Sodium Ascorbate 100% Buffered vitamin c

Its very cheap. 8oz/227grams for like $16.00 shipped.

Something like this?

Amazon.com: Vitamin C 1000 mg Buffered Powder Non-Acidic: Health & Personal Care (http://www.amazon.com/Vitamin-1000-Buffered-Powder-Non-Acidic/dp/B000700IXM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1277536316&sr=1-2)

or this?

Amazon.com: Source Naturals Sodium Ascorbate Buffered C Crystals: Health & Personal Care (http://www.amazon.com/Source-Naturals-Vitamin-powder/dp/B0014GZVN0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1277536316&sr=1-1)


if neither of them too, how bout i get a direct link to it.. i'd really like to try it out.. of course i'd prolly do half of the dose stated earlier

Here is the company. You have to make sure its 100% vitamin c. I know for a fact that this one is pure.

coolsurf
06-26-2010, 9:08 AM
Thanks for the info Mike. If anyone wants to go in on a bottle, LMK. I think I want to try it out.

mikesommers
06-26-2010, 9:12 AM
Be careful, what works in one tank may not work in another, totally different set of conditions. If you can't test for it, don't put it in, is one of my reefing rules, so you might wanna start off less than the recommended amount and run plenty tests.


I have seen some amazing aquariums using this stuff in them. I agree you have to be smart about what you put in the water. Anytime you try something new start off easy. On the other hand I don't have the $$$ to be crashing my tank either. I took Simon's advice and tried this. My Hippo has been battling HLLE for 2 1/2 years. I have seen better progress in the last 10 days adding extra vitamin c to the tank then ever before. My zoas are the size of dimes and all the SPS look wonderful. I dont think vitamin c can hurt much of anything but ph. That being said don't dump the bottle in there....:up:

mikesommers
06-26-2010, 9:13 AM
:up:
If you want you are welcome to come by and pick some up from me. I can give you a months worth for you to try. LMK

Thanks for the info Mike. If anyone wants to go in on a bottle, LMK. I think I want to try it out.

weaglereefer
06-26-2010, 11:19 AM
Yeah, I can also offer a few month's worth. When I was dosing for my zoas I was using .15ml a day, so it lasts a while. Figure 2 month's worth would be enough for people to see the effects.

I'm still working out details to see if I can make the BBQ, but could bring a few samples for those interested.

mikesommers
06-26-2010, 11:57 AM
Yeah, I can also offer a few month's worth. When I was dosing for my zoas I was using .15ml a day, so it lasts a while. Figure 2 month's worth would be enough for people to see the effects.

I'm still working out details to see if I can make the BBQ, but could bring a few samples for those interested.

I agree.

LilRobb
06-26-2010, 1:10 PM
If either one of you is making the bbq - I'd like a sample to see if I can revive my SPS graveyard tank.
At this stage I am willing to try anything...

mikesommers
06-26-2010, 1:21 PM
If either one of you is making the bbq - I'd like a sample to see if I can revive my SPS graveyard tank.
At this stage I am willing to try anything...

This is one of the thing I believe Simon said it will help with. Vitamin C is one of the harder vitamins for any living creature to get. Its good for so much stuff. I think its worth a shot for sure! While we are on a topic of BBQ, were is it going to be held and when? I would really like to be there. I have been a member for three years and been to one function, Christmas dinner when Brandon was Pres.

cr500_af
06-27-2010, 2:38 AM
This is one of the thing I believe Simon said it will help with. Vitamin C is one of the harder vitamins for any living creature to get. Its good for so much stuff. I think its worth a shot for sure! While we are on a topic of BBQ, were is it going to be held and when? I would really like to be there. I have been a member for three years and been to one function, Christmas dinner when Brandon was Pres.

July 17th, 12-7 @ Murphy Candler Park.
http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=44816

cr500_af
06-27-2010, 2:39 AM
Yeah, I can also offer a few month's worth. When I was dosing for my zoas I was using .15ml a day, so it lasts a while. Figure 2 month's worth would be enough for people to see the effects.

I'm still working out details to see if I can make the BBQ, but could bring a few samples for those interested.

Jeff, I'd like to take you up on that if you make the BBQ. If not, I can meet you in Auburn the next time I'm going to the Gump, or maybe at the next meeting you attend after the BBQ.

Assault
06-27-2010, 3:22 AM
Simon's the greatest, He has been helping me behind the scenes with my build, since so much of the advice on the threads pertain to smaller builds. His tank is so remarkable, and I've just seen phone pics.

mikesommers
06-27-2010, 10:10 AM
July 17th, 12-7 @ Murphy Candler Park.
http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=44816

Thanks man.

weaglereefer
07-27-2010, 9:54 PM
Just left some of this with Andy, so yall can bug him for it, lol.

I can bring more to the meeting on 8/10, but might give new meaning to the term "reef addict" if I'm passing out little bags of white powder...

gnashty
07-27-2010, 10:00 PM
Andy - Im in for a lil bit if you have any to spare, wanted to try it out before i buy some

Ralph ATL
07-27-2010, 10:18 PM
Vit C is a known carbon source like Vodka, VSV, etc. I've been dosing carbon for years, however, there are side effects, and it can cause major issues. Make sure you skim on the wet side, and dose gradually.

mikesommers
07-27-2010, 11:11 PM
Just left some of this with Andy, so yall can bug him for it, lol.

I can bring more to the meeting on 8/10, but might give new meaning to the term "reef addict" if I'm passing out little bags of white powder...

:lol2:

mikesommers
07-27-2010, 11:19 PM
Vit C is a known carbon source like Vodka, VSV, etc. I've been dosing carbon for years, however, there are side effects, and it can cause major issues. Make sure you skim on the wet side, and dose gradually.

I got my dosing instructions from Simon. As far as I know he has been using it for quite some time @ 1 teaspoon per 100 gallons per week. His reef and fish look super!!! I have had great luck as well healing the HLLE up on my Hippo Tang. I do give it a :up:! I'm not saying to not be careful, as with anything we dose in our tanks you need to know your animals. They usually have allot to say about it.:D

AndyMan
07-27-2010, 11:29 PM
Andy - Im in for a lil bit if you have any to spare, wanted to try it out before i buy someI smell trade for Kalk, seing as though Jeff is going to teach you about wiring switches in series :lol2:

weaglereefer
07-28-2010, 4:39 AM
Seriously, anyone that wants to give this a go, send me a PM and I'll bring you some for the August meeting. Figure your needs at the 1tsp/100g/week ratio and I'll supply enough for 2 months for the first few people, just let me know how many tsp you want.

And Howard, you are excluded from this offer, lol. Don't think I'd have enough for one week for you.

gnashty
07-28-2010, 11:08 AM
I smell trade for Kalk, seing as though Jeff is going to teach you about wiring switches in series :lol2:

lezzz do it - i still need to know about wiring it up - dont care from who!!

AndyMan
07-28-2010, 11:41 AM
Pictures tell a better story.. so here goes

FROM 2 separate switches -> 2 switches one being a backup for the first

hppp://"content removed as per user's request"/switches/switches_a.jpg

NOW, cut 1 wire from each of the swtches and tie it together, take the other 2 ends and put them into a switch connector.... as far as the reefkeeper is concerned, you only have 1 float switch BUT you really have 2, if the first one fails, invariably the second will catch and trip as needed
hppp://"content removed as per user's request"/switches/switches_2.jpg

gnashty
07-28-2010, 3:30 PM
makes sense now....my current set up has one float switch that tells the ATO to turn on and the other is in case the 1st one fails to shut off and reaches a "high level" in the sump. so i would really need the 2nd one to say "no more" vs. "my brother failed, help me out" - could i just make turn the switch upside down and get the same result?

Actually, my ATO only holds 10 gal and my sump can take it with no issue so im probably better off just doing like you mention above?

AndyMan
07-28-2010, 3:48 PM
makes sense now....my current set up has one float switch that tells the ATO to turn on and the other is in case the 1st one fails to shut off and reaches a "high level" in the sump. so i would really need the 2nd one to say "no more" vs. "my brother failed, help me out" - could i just make turn the switch upside down and get the same result?

Actually, my ATO only holds 10 gal and my sump can take it with no issue so im probably better off just doing like you mention above?putting 2 switcges in series like I did in the second picture, if the lower switch ever fails, the second one would say "no more" by default once it got tripped

YES, you could run 2 of these at the same physical level in the tank (and having a buddy scenario as you described would work) but setting one of them slightly higher than the first accomplishes the same scenario as your "no more" above and still only uses 1 input... you can put as many switches in series as you want, say 2 on the lower level and 2 on the upper level if ou really want redundancy, still, you're only going to use 1 switch input

weaglereefer
07-28-2010, 3:51 PM
makes sense now....my current set up has one float switch that tells the ATO to turn on and the other is in case the 1st one fails to shut off and reaches a "high level" in the sump. so i would really need the 2nd one to say "no more" vs. "my brother failed, help me out" - could i just make turn the switch upside down and get the same result?

Actually, my ATO only holds 10 gal and my sump can take it with no issue so im probably better off just doing like you mention above?


So your low float switch kicks on the pump for a predetermined amount of time? Or it turns on til the float trips again and turns off?

I would get a set of floats in series like shown, put the ATO pump on a timer and set the timer for just a bit longer than is needed in case of hot days. For example, set up the float and fill the water until it goes from closed to open on the RK display. Then wait a pre-determined amount of time, easy way to do it is say one day EXACTLY, and turn the pump on til the float opens again (it should have closed as water evaporated and the level in the sump dropped). You can measure the amount of time the pump ran to refill to the "open" level, and divide by 4, 6, or 8 depending on how many times you want to have the ATO kick on. Then add a minute or so to this time and you'll have your "time on" to use for the reefkeeper, and the "repeat:xx" is however many you divided 24 by.

The result is that if the float switches fail, as long as the timer is still working and the pump doesn't stick on, it will take days before an overflow occurs, and you'll likely notice it before it's a problem and a mess.

I hope that explanation made sense, and if you need help, just PM me. Basically just set the pump as a "multi timer" (assuming Digital Aquatics, right?), set a start time at like 12:00:00 am, set "duration" to 5min, "time off" to 3hr, 55min, and repeat to 2. Then set another up again starting at 12:00:00 pm with the same settings. Finally, set an alarm triggered by the float switches (usually set point is .5 and trigger above or below based on orientation of the float, this is easy enough to determine if you sit there and mess with the float) to turn off the alarm.

gnashty
07-28-2010, 3:52 PM
putting 2 switcges in series like I did in the second picture, if the lower switch ever fails, the second one would say "no more" by default once it got tripped

YES, you could run 2 of these at the same physical level in the tank (and having a buddy scenario as you described would work) but setting one of them slightly higher than the first accomplishes the same scenario as your "no more" above and still only uses 1 input... you can put as many switches in series as you want, say 2 on the lower level and 2 on the upper level if ou really want redundancy, still, you're only going to use 1 switch input

;) gotchya - so when am i bringin the kalk by? meet at creation this weekend?

gnashty
07-28-2010, 4:01 PM
So your low float switch kicks on the pump for a predetermined amount of time? Or it turns on til the float trips again and turns off?

I would get a set of floats in series like shown, put the ATO pump on a timer and set the timer for just a bit longer than is needed in case of hot days. For example, set up the float and fill the water until it goes from closed to open on the RK display. Then wait a pre-determined amount of time, easy way to do it is say one day EXACTLY, and turn the pump on til the float opens again (it should have closed as water evaporated and the level in the sump dropped). You can measure the amount of time the pump ran to refill to the "open" level, and divide by 4, 6, or 8 depending on how many times you want to have the ATO kick on. Then add a minute or so to this time and you'll have your "time on" to use for the reefkeeper, and the "repeat:xx" is however many you divided 24 by.

The result is that if the float switches fail, as long as the timer is still working and the pump doesn't stick on, it will take days before an overflow occurs, and you'll likely notice it before it's a problem and a mess.

I hope that explanation made sense, and if you need help, just PM me. Basically just set the pump as a "multi timer" (assuming Digital Aquatics, right?), set a start time at like 12:00:00 am, set "duration" to 5min, "time off" to 3hr, 55min, and repeat to 2. Then set another up again starting at 12:00:00 pm with the same settings. Finally, set an alarm triggered by the float switches (usually set point is .5 and trigger above or below based on orientation of the float, this is easy enough to determine if you sit there and mess with the float) to turn off the alarm.

:eek: You sunk my battleship!! the low float when tripped turns on ato - when it floats again it kicks off the ato - top one is only if the bottom one fails to turn off the ato and prevents a spill. that was my setup with my old sump - my new sump can hole the entire tank

I toyed with the idea of doing timed method this when I was adding kalk to my ATO for some consistency but I really dont have that issue anymore. My ATO tank is only 10 gal so if the ATO fails worse case is the ATO pump burns or I add a max of 10 gal water to my system which would be like .5% total system volume - likely wouldnt throw off any parameters persay.

LilRobb
07-28-2010, 4:07 PM
... I add a max of 10 gal water to my system which would be like .5% total system volume - likely wouldnt throw off any parameters persay.


NICE,

didn't know you had a 2000gal system...

gnashty
07-28-2010, 4:09 PM
you really should come by and see it - pretty sweet!!:unsure:

:doh:

weaglereefer
07-28-2010, 4:11 PM
:eek: You sunk my battleship!! the low float when tripped turns on ato - when it floats again it kicks off the ato - top one is only if the bottom one fails to turn off the ato and prevents a spill. that was my setup with my old sump - my new sump can hole the entire tank

I toyed with the idea of doing timed method this when I was adding kalk to my ATO for some consistency but I really dont have that issue anymore. My ATO tank is only 10 gal so if the ATO fails worse case is the ATO pump burns or I add a max of 10 gal water to my system which would be like .5% total system volume - likely wouldnt throw off any parameters persay.


You could switch to an Aqualifter pump, which won't fail when it pumps air, it will just be an air pump.

Decimals are tricky :lol2:

A 5% change is not huge, and would be like going from 1.026 to 1.025, not a huge deal, you're right, but if it's easy to fix, why not?

And suppose you have a power failure right after the ATO fails. Will the water returning to the tank cause the sump to overflow? :sad:

gnashty
07-28-2010, 4:18 PM
You could switch to an Aqualifter pump, which won't fail when it pumps air, it will just be an air pump.

Decimals are tricky :lol2:

A 5% change is not huge, and would be like going from 1.026 to 1.025, not a huge deal, you're right, but if it's easy to fix, why not?

And suppose you have a power failure right after the ATO fails. Will the water returning to the tank cause the sump to overflow? :sad:

I know!! -they really arent though and Im in the middle of a $250M sale working with spreadsheets all day long - I have one minimized while I respond here.....guess i better dble check my work again!

I have an aqualifter in the garage - i hooked it up to the ATO when i first got it and when the switch triggered it - it wouldnt stop pumping...:confused2:

And yes - if the ATO failed then the power failed i would have a slightly wet floor - not flooded but that 10 gal would be on the floor. my sump holds EXACTLY the return water but not a liter more

AndyMan
07-28-2010, 4:23 PM
You could switch to an Aqualifter pump, which won't fail when it pumps air, it will just be an air pump.Love those aqualifters :thumbs:

weaglereefer
07-28-2010, 4:26 PM
I know!! -they really arent though and Im in the middle of a $250M sale working with spreadsheets all day long - I have one minimized while I respond here.....guess i better dble check my work again!

I have an aqualifter in the garage - i hooked it up to the ATO when i first got it and when the switch triggered it - it wouldnt stop pumping...:confused2:*1

And yes - if the ATO failed then the power failed i would have a slightly wet floor - not flooded but that 10 gal would be on the floor. my sump holds EXACTLY the return water but not a liter*2 more

*1 Put the Aqualifter on channel 1 or 4. :thumbs:

*2 This is America. We use cups and gallons, not litres. :up:

AndyMan
07-28-2010, 4:27 PM
I have an aqualifter in the garage - i hooked it up to the ATO when i first got it and when the switch triggered it - it wouldnt stop pumping...:confused2:you plugged the aqualifter into socket 2 or 3 of the pc4 didn't you... try putting on 1 or 4 and make sure you have a syphon break in place (just after the output of the Aqualifter put a T joint and run an empty piece of tubing vertically into space)

LilRobb
07-28-2010, 4:28 PM
*2 This is America. We use cups and gallons, not litres. :up:



But you don't have to show the rest of the world that you're still 1492 years behind...

gnashty
07-28-2010, 4:32 PM
*1 Put the Aqualifter on channel 1 or 4. :thumbs:

*2 This is America. We use cups and gallons, not litres. :up:

Hey - I buy cola by the liter.......cant i get a liter a cola?

why 1 or 4????

weaglereefer
07-28-2010, 4:32 PM
I don't want a Large Farva!

:hijacked:

gnashty
07-28-2010, 4:33 PM
:lol2:

*does this look like spit to you?*

AndyMan
07-28-2010, 4:33 PM
1&4 use relay outputs
2&3 are "solid state" driven and need to see current draw to operate correctly

gnashty
07-28-2010, 4:35 PM
1&4 use relay outputs
2&3 are "solid state" driven and need to see current draw to operate correctly

What the french, toast???

How did I not know this???

AndyMan
07-28-2010, 4:38 PM
What the french, toast???

How did I not know this???hmmmmm RTFM, maybe also because I've have PC4's in pieces :yay:

weaglereefer
07-28-2010, 4:40 PM
hmmmmm RTFM:yay:

FTMFW :up:

gnashty
08-15-2010, 9:59 AM
Any updates on your Vit C dosing and the long term results/effects?. I have cruised the massive RC thread and decided (skepticallY) to start yesterday, thanks for the hookup Jeff!

The RC thread suggests dosing twice daily but here suggest once weekly so I am a little confused. I started with 15 ppm, 2 teaspoons total for 230 gallons of water volume.

EnderG60
10-22-2010, 9:33 AM
Bump for updates.

Id like to hear some results, and how you all are dosing it(times per week and in liquid or powder form)

AndrewG
10-22-2010, 1:50 PM
Anyone still looking to buy this?

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/NWF215/ItemDetail?n=0

use coupon code fb199 and shipping will only cost $1.99. Total cost for this is $10.39 for an 8oz bottle.

gnashty
10-22-2010, 1:58 PM
I dosed for a while - 2 tsp weekly in a 230 gal system. didnt notice much of anything but my naso did have ich before i started dosing and after the first week it went away - cant attribute it to the vit c though. Corals colors looked better, zoas stopped melting, fish look healthier.....i cannot directly tie this to the Vit C though

I have had a bad brown algae problem on the glass since i started though - still going on long after I stopped dosing so cant blame the vit c either.

rolo65
10-22-2010, 4:41 PM
I started dosing C as well and have had brown algea on the sand and a little on the rocks here and there....nothing that hasnt been taken care of by the sailfin and CUC...

Acroholic
10-22-2010, 5:41 PM
I don't know if this stuff works or not. Unfortunately, the first couple threads I read on vitamin C dosing (Reef Central/R2R) heralded it as the silver bullet that would cure a variety of tank issues, everything from poor coral colors to non-growing zoanthids to it being a cure for HLLE, so it immediately got placed by me in the snake oil category, right next to the Eco Aqualizer. It still is there, for me at least.

AndrewG
10-22-2010, 5:47 PM
You telling me the Eco Aqualizer doesn't work? I have like 6 of those in my display tank sump. I've noticed it increases my fishes appetite. Of course it works better when you don't feed them for a few days.

Fish Scales2
10-22-2010, 5:48 PM
:lol2::lol2::lol2:

You telling me the Eco Aqualizer doesn't work? I have like 6 of those in my display tank sump. I've noticed it increases my fishes appetite. Of course it works better when you don't feed them for a few days.

Acroholic
10-22-2010, 5:50 PM
You telling me the Eco Aqualizer doesn't work? I have like 6 of those in my display tank sump. I've noticed it increases my fishes appetite. Of course it works better when you don't feed them for a few days.

:lol2:

EnderG60
10-25-2010, 11:59 AM
I ordered some of it, and Im gonna give it a try.

the 1tsp/100g per that simon recommended is WAY less then what they recommend in the RC forum, so Ill start with that and if I see good things Ill try the higher/more frequent dosage.

Stuff should arrive today, so we'll see how it goes.

jmaneyapanda
10-25-2010, 12:08 PM
I don't know if this stuff works or not. Unfortunately, the first couple threads I read on vitamin C dosing (Reef Central/R2R) heralded it as the silver bullet that would cure a variety of tank issues, everything from poor coral colors to non-growing zoanthids to it being a cure for HLLE, so it immediately got placed by me in the snake oil category, right next to the Eco Aqualizer. It still is there, for me at least.

Well, Vit C DOES have biological value in boosting immune systems. That is science. However, the lengths to which certain hobbyists will go with their claims is quite laughable sometimes. Snake oil, I would not claim it. It will have benefit if dosed. To what extent is questionable. It is very similar to those who profess garlic "helps". But, comparing it to the eco-aqualizer is quite unfair, IMO.

AndrewG
10-25-2010, 12:17 PM
Well, Vit C DOES have biological value in boosting immune systems. That is science. However, the lengths to which certain hobbyists will go with their claims is quite laughable sometimes. Snake oil, I would not claim it. It will have benefit if dosed. To what extent is questionable. It is very similar to those who profess garlic "helps". But, comparing it to the eco-aqualizer is quite unfair, IMO.

Jeremy,

The eco aqualyzer has got to be one of the funniest marketing gimmicks. I love the thread where the guy dissects it with photos.

What dosage of Vit C would you recommend for starters?

I've always added a few drops of garlic concentrate to the food which seems well received. Of course I feed a mix of 7 different ingredients. The fish eat better than my kids.

EnderG60
10-25-2010, 12:52 PM
where is that thread on the eco aqualizer? that sounds funny :)

AndrewG
10-25-2010, 1:23 PM
Here it is.

http://www.reefs.org/library/testing/ecoaqualizer

Not positive I can link to another site. Dave if not appropriate please remove.

I'm going to dose Vit C for preventative maint. I won't know if it's working.

Acroholic
10-25-2010, 1:52 PM
Well, Vit C DOES have biological value in boosting immune systems. That is science. However, the lengths to which certain hobbyists will go with their claims is quite laughable sometimes. Snake oil, I would not claim it. It will have benefit if dosed. To what extent is questionable. It is very similar to those who profess garlic "helps". But, comparing it to the eco-aqualizer is quite unfair, IMO.

Maybe it is unfair, at least Vit C does have biological function, whereas the Eco Aqualizer doesn't. But the actual value as an additive to the reef tank is still very questionable, IMO.

But I have always preferred to give my fish their Vitamin C thru their diet with a variety of foods (Nori especially). JMO, but if you feed a varied diet to your fish you are probably meeting most of their nutritional needs and dosing Vitamin C is probably redundant.

My opinion may be a bit biased, however, because I personally think most of the nutritional additives sold are unnecessary and basically a waste of money. I do not dose anything in my reef tanks, meaning amino acids, garlic, food soaks, coral specific target foods, anything related to coral color or vitamins for fish, etc.

Offering a varied diet to your fish should provide the fish and corals with anything you would dose specifically, like vitamin C and the rest. I would rather take the $ I'd spend on those additives you really don't know if they work or not and spend it on high quality food.

I haven't dosed anything in the last two years and just provide a varied diet to my fish with zero target feeding of any corals, and I have five healthy tangs (and many other healthy fish) with no HLLE and corals with good color and fantastic growth.

Chemical stability, good water flow, proper lighting, and quality food are the key areas I believe that make a successful, healthy reef system with thriving fish and corals. The above JMO.

Acroholic
10-25-2010, 1:59 PM
where is that thread on the eco aqualizer? that sounds funny :)

Here's the actual product website. Remember, the product is a PVC pipe with magnets taped around the outside. That's it.

http://www.ecoaqualizer.com/aquarium_filter/aquarium_filter.php

cr500_af
10-25-2010, 2:16 PM
I can't tell you how much better I sleep at night knowing there is an Eco Aqualizer dealer in Metro Atlanta. I'm tired of water changes. :lol2:

AndrewG
10-25-2010, 3:50 PM
I just like the fact that it oxidizes ALL impurities. This would be a great addition to a septic system. Water would be clean enough to drink after running through this gem.

jmaneyapanda
10-25-2010, 3:58 PM
Jeremy,

The eco aqualyzer has got to be one of the funniest marketing gimmicks. I love the thread where the guy dissects it with photos.

What dosage of Vit C would you recommend for starters?

I've always added a few drops of garlic concentrate to the food which seems well received. Of course I feed a mix of 7 different ingredients. The fish eat better than my kids.

To be honest, I have no idea. I dont often dose for it. And Im sure each manufacturer would have different suggestions. However, as with many vitamins, I doubt youi could overdo it. But, also, with many such supplements, something to consider is they likely temporarily destroy your ORP.

Maybe it is unfair, at least Vit C does have biological function, whereas the Eco Aqualizer doesn't. But the actual value as an additive to the reef tank is still very questionable, IMO.

But I have always preferred to give my fish their Vitamin C thru their diet with a variety of foods (Nori especially). JMO, but if you feed a varied diet to your fish you are probably meeting most of their nutritional needs and dosing Vitamin C is probably redundant.

My opinion may be a bit biased, however, because I personally think most of the nutritional additives sold are unnecessary and basically a waste of money. I do not dose anything in my reef tanks, meaning amino acids, garlic, food soaks, coral specific target foods, anything related to coral color or vitamins for fish, etc.

Offering a varied diet to your fish should provide the fish and corals with anything you would dose specifically, like vitamin C and the rest. I would rather take the $ I'd spend on those additives you really don't know if they work or not and spend it on high quality food.

I haven't dosed anything in the last two years and just provide a varied diet to my fish with zero target feeding of any corals, and I have five healthy tangs (and many other healthy fish) with no HLLE and corals with good color and fantastic growth.

Chemical stability, good water flow, proper lighting, and quality food are the key areas I believe that make a successful, healthy reef system with thriving fish and corals. The above JMO.

Even though Nori is purported to have high Vit C, Something to consider is that Vitamin C is generally very unstable, and easy to "devalue". Especially in the heating process, which all nori is heated. However, in regards to your statemnt, Im not sure I quite understand. You state you like you fish to ingest it via nori, but dont see the value in dosing it? Feeding it IS dosing it. They are the same. Adding it to the water will yield the same mechanical and metabolic process as adding it to food. Except that non fish items (corals, inverts, etc), will also be able to ingest it, if dosed to the water column. Something to remember, is that fish DO drink water. As silly as it sounds, they do.

Also, FWIW, HLLE is likely not due too much to diet, as recent studies show. At least, not nearly as much as carbon. At least thats the latest info.

Dave, I agree with your principles, but I dont know if we, as aquarists, can make the leaps of deductions you are making. I too, feel that feeding a varied and robust diet is crucial to fish care. However, I dont feel suggesting that all needed vitamins, minerals, etc are in these diets is appropriate. What Vitamins and minerals? In what amounts? What constitutes a "good diet"? While I certainly dont suggest we all go out and buy and start using vitamin supplements for the tank (I feel the exact opposite, really), I DO feel that we dont understand much of our fishes dietary needs much at all. We have, however, been able to head to successful keeping based of previous experience and "track records", but this isnt necessarily meeting all those needs.

Just my opinion.

Acroholic
10-25-2010, 5:38 PM
Even though Nori is purported to have high Vit C, Something to consider is that Vitamin C is generally very unstable, and easy to "devalue". Especially in the heating process, which all nori is heated. However, in regards to your statemnt, Im not sure I quite understand. You state you like you fish to ingest it via nori, but dont see the value in dosing it? Feeding it IS dosing it. They are the same. Adding it to the water will yield the same mechanical and metabolic process as adding it to food. Except that non fish items (corals, inverts, etc), will also be able to ingest it, if dosed to the water column. Something to remember, is that fish DO drink water. As silly as it sounds, they do.

Also, FWIW, HLLE is likely not due too much to diet, as recent studies show. At least, not nearly as much as carbon. At least thats the latest info.

Dave, I agree with your principles, but I dont know if we, as aquarists, can make the leaps of deductions you are making. I too, feel that feeding a varied and robust diet is crucial to fish care. However, I dont feel suggesting that all needed vitamins, minerals, etc are in these diets is appropriate. What Vitamins and minerals? In what amounts? What constitutes a "good diet"? While I certainly dont suggest we all go out and buy and start using vitamin supplements for the tank (I feel the exact opposite, really), I DO feel that we dont understand much of our fishes dietary needs much at all. We have, however, been able to head to successful keeping based of previous experience and "track records", but this isnt necessarily meeting all those needs.

Just my opinion.

As you and I have both stated, just my opinion. I've followed the varied diet with no nutritional dosing approach with freshwater fish and saltwater fish/corals for the last 25 years of my 36 years of keeping fish, and it has served me well. Do I have anything but anecdotal evidence? No. But neither does anyone else.

I'm not saying anyone has to follow my approach, but to me, the need to dose vitamin C or amino acids or whatever nutritionally related supplement you have to is to make up for something you are not providing to the fish in their diet. I do use carbon and have in my reef systems ever since startup with no HLLE. I can't say there is no correlation, just not IME.

However, I dont feel suggesting that all needed vitamins, minerals, etc are in these diets is appropriate.

The answer probably lies somewhere in the middle. Fish meet their needs in the wild somehow. Is a wild reef fish's diet "perfectly' balanced? Probably not. If no one can, as you state, exactly quantify "how much" of this or that vitamin or mineral is correct for a particular fish, and I assume one fish species needs vary from another's, then the varied diet approach seems as valid and able to meet their needs as any other.

Feeding vitamin C or dosing vitamin C, I won't get hung up on semantics. I prefer to feed a wide variety of foods and not worry about supplements. I currently feed about 12 different types of (prepared/frozen/self made) food to my reef fish. Better use of my reefing dollars and better for the health of the fish, IME.

There are many different, but just as valid, pathways to successfully meeting the needs of our reef inhabitants. Mine is not the only way, but it is a way.

musicalocean
10-25-2010, 7:12 PM
Due to unfortunate circumstance I've had to dose my tank with it today as a last resort to save my fish. My husband bought a tang from a local store NOT all things aquatic! Which was where I wished he would have done in the 1st place! Anyway, the fish was bad sick & it's such a bad case till nothing is helping. Tried metro, garlic guard, vitality ect! Nothing touches this mess. I put in the buffered vitamin C a few hours ago & the difference is amazing! Fish that were at deaths door are now eating again & the huge systs are rapidly dissapearing. The corals have opened larger than I've ever seen especially the zoas & the torches.. Pretty much all the coral went nuts over it but I'm so relieved it helped my fish. No more new fish for me unless it's a member on here selling one. That way I know where it comes from :) thanks mike for saving my fish!!

ichthyoid
10-25-2010, 9:13 PM
Below are some interesting links from the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point (from a chemistry lab discussion), and Oregon State University-Linus Pauling Institute, on Vitamin C and it's various forms and stability. Being an acid, Vitamin C is not stable in alkaline environments such as marine water (pH ~8.0+). The 'mineral salts' of vitamin C such as sodium acscorbate or calcium ascorbate are also discussed. Enjoy.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/ss01/bioavailability.html

http://www.uwsp.edu/chemistry/jlawrenc/Content/Chem%20260%20Content/Chem%20260%20Labs/Vitamin%20C%20Lab.pdf

musicalocean
10-26-2010, 1:02 AM
I just came across this article & found it interesting. Notice where it mentions treating bacterial & other infections. Not saying I would dose my tank with it all the time but it sure helped today :) oops yesterday mean

http://www.athiel.com/lib/vitC496.html

gnashty
10-26-2010, 6:33 AM
I did notice a "slimy film" on the top of my sump water and fuge when I was dosing....

musicalocean
10-26-2010, 7:18 AM
I noticed a little film on the top of the water while mixing it in the RO water. So I filtered it through some cheese cloth before adding it to my tank.. Haven't noticed it in the sump yet but I only dosed the one time yesterday

jmaneyapanda
10-26-2010, 7:19 AM
As you and I have both stated, just my opinion. I've followed the varied diet with no nutritional dosing approach with freshwater fish and saltwater fish/corals for the last 25 years of my 36 years of keeping fish, and it has served me well. Do I have anything but anecdotal evidence? No. But neither does anyone else.

I'm not saying anyone has to follow my approach, but to me, the need to dose vitamin C or amino acids or whatever nutritionally related supplement you have to is to make up for something you are not providing to the fish in their diet. I do use carbon and have in my reef systems ever since startup with no HLLE. I can't say there is no correlation, just not IME.



The answer probably lies somewhere in the middle. Fish meet their needs in the wild somehow. Is a wild reef fish's diet "perfectly' balanced? Probably not. If no one can, as you state, exactly quantify "how much" of this or that vitamin or mineral is correct for a particular fish, and I assume one fish species needs vary from another's, then the varied diet approach seems as valid and able to meet their needs as any other.

Feeding vitamin C or dosing vitamin C, I won't get hung up on semantics. I prefer to feed a wide variety of foods and not worry about supplements. I currently feed about 12 different types of (prepared/frozen/self made) food to my reef fish. Better use of my reefing dollars and better for the health of the fish, IME.

There are many different, but just as valid, pathways to successfully meeting the needs of our reef inhabitants. Mine is not the only way, but it is a way.

Dave, dont get defensive. I am not attacking you, or your methods. I was merely commenting towards a comment you made, about vitamin C being "snake oil". I disagree with that sentiment, thats all. It has NOTHING to do with you, your experience, you success, or anything otherwise.

As for HLLE and carbon, I didnt say there was an absolute correlation, that everyone who uses carbon, gets HLLE. I said the most recent research shows that carbon is a DEFINITE cause. And a long lasting one, too. And it also has shown that diet is less a cause (and consequent remedy) as has been speculated in the past. Let me know if you want that info, and Ill forward it.

However, your suggestion that a wild fishes diet is not "perfectly balanced" is something I cannot disagree with more. Wild fish have adapted and evolved over hundreds of millions of years to eat exactly what they do in the wild, and thrive at it. Their wild diet is EXACTLY PERFECTLY BALANCED. Otherwise, they would have adapted to eat something else over time, and the species would have "plasticized".

Varied diets means so much more than providing vitamins and minerals. There are fats, carbohydrates, roughage, gut micro flora and fauna to consider, and these are things which we have NO IDEA about. So, suggesting that we provided any knowledge of meeting these needs isnt appropriate in my opinion. We have the benefit of our previous aquarists experience and successes to base our knowledge off of, but this, still is in no way, a documentation of "meeting fishes requiremnets". It is a template for us to follow to have a modicum of success. That is all Im trying to say.

If you feel that dosing vitamin C doesnt work for you, or is useless for you, So be it. It very well may be. And I wont argue with your success. However, I dont feel you can accurately say it is snake oil, because vitamin C does have good properties biologically, and can be proposed to have positive qualities deductively, just as far, if not farther than, simply saying "I dont use it, and I have success, therefore its garbage".

Acroholic
10-26-2010, 9:28 AM
Dave, dont get defensive. I am not attacking you, or your methods. I was merely commenting towards a comment you made, about vitamin C being "snake oil". I disagree with that sentiment, thats all. It has NOTHING to do with you, your experience, you success, or anything otherwise.

And I have already conceded that that statement was probably unfair, and I further stated that IMO the value of dosing vitamin C is questionable. So why continue the argument about that when I corrected my statement in post 76?

However, your suggestion that a wild fishes diet is not "perfectly balanced" is something I cannot disagree with more. Wild fish have adapted and evolved over hundreds of millions of years to eat exactly what they do in the wild, and thrive at it. Their wild diet is EXACTLY PERFECTLY BALANCED. Otherwise, they would have adapted to eat something else over time, and the species would have "plasticized".

I understand your above statement, but I don't agree that every animal gets a perfectly balanced diet every time. Fish and land animals have seasonal and yearly variations of what and how much of a particular food item is available to them. If a normal food item is not available or unusually limited because of drought or other environmental condition, some animals may die, or respond by having fewer babies, and even those may not survive if the mother does not produce enough milk to feed her young. If not enough food of a certain type is available, are the animals getting a perfectly balanced diet? Probably not. They are surviving, but not thriving. Fish are probably evolved to seek alternate sources of nutrition the way land animals are. Are they getting a perfectly balanced diet every day/year, etc? I would think there are times that they survive more than thrive like any other wild animal based on what food is available to them any particular year or month. Is that an unreasonable assumption?

Varied diets means so much more than providing vitamins and minerals. There are fats, carbohydrates, roughage, gut micro flora and fauna to consider, and these are things which we have NO IDEA about. So, suggesting that we provided any knowledge of meeting these needs isnt appropriate in my opinion. We have the benefit of our previous aquarists experience and successes to base our knowledge off of, but this, still is in no way, a documentation of "meeting fishes requiremnets". It is a template for us to follow to have a modicum of success. That is all Im trying to say.

I never suggested that I provided scientific knowledge of meeting a fish's needs. If you refer to my posts, I qualify my statements with "my opinion" or "my experience" throughout. I have provided my anecdotal experience and opinions only, and never made claim to anything else. Furthermore, I stated that my experience was anecdotal, as is everyone's.

I stated my opinion that attempting to meet a fish's nutritional needs through a varied diet is as valid as any other, not better. I stated that you could probably meet "most" of their nutritional requirements through a varied diet. Never did I say "all".

If you feel that dosing vitamin C doesnt work for you, or is useless for you, So be it. It very well may be. And I wont argue with your success. However, I dont feel you can accurately say it is snake oil, because vitamin C does have good properties biologically, and can be proposed to have positive qualities deductively, just as far, if not farther than, simply saying "I dont use it, and I have success, therefore its garbage".

Again, I amended my "snake oil" statement back in post 76. I listened to you the first time. Why bring it up again?

EnderG60
10-26-2010, 9:36 AM
you two...http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/images/smilies/slapfight.gif

haha, well I got the stuff last night and started with a 1/3 dose. got a bit of a film on the water surface but other then that no problems. Ill do a 2/3 dose tonight and see how it goes.

jmaneyapanda
10-26-2010, 10:12 AM
Sorry for disrupting. My intention was only to express my opinion, and explain it, as well. I apologize for giving the impression of argument.

gnashty
10-26-2010, 10:32 AM
you two...http://www.rockymountainextreme.com/images/smilies/slapfight.gif



Awesome smiley....never saw that one before!!!

EnderG60
10-26-2010, 10:44 AM
Sorry for disrupting. My intention was only to express my opinion, and explain it, as well. I apologize for giving the impression of argument.


no need to apologize i was just making fun of you two bickering :)