View Full Version : TOPICS and WORKSHOPS of INTEREST


Kevin
05-08-2007, 10:43 AM
If you have any ideas of what types of topics/workshops would be of interest to our community, please post them in this thread so that we can utilize your information for planning MACNA.

Thanks in advance

Xyzpdq0121
05-08-2007, 10:45 AM
I like the idea of having to "tracks" of speakers: One novice and one advanced on most topis. I think of myself as advanced about fish pathology but more of a novice on issues such as lighting. It would be great to get the best of both worlds. Only suggestion as of now.

Stroid
05-08-2007, 11:56 AM
Topic: What is algae? And how to affect it effectivly.

jefft
05-08-2007, 12:36 PM
I would like to see and attend a photography topic. Have actual hands on demonstrations along with lectures. I think the club should approach local and regional photo shops to provide equipment i.e. Cameras, lens, filters, etc. This could and should increase sales for their stores as members/attendees find the enjoyment of taking photographs that will dazzle others. They could also offer up the demonstration equipment for a raffle at the end of the show.
:party:

fishwhisperer
05-08-2007, 12:37 PM
What about a DIY workshop. Perhaps for a phosphate reactor or moon light. This of course would cost extra if all the supplies were on hand.

fishwhisperer
05-08-2007, 12:41 PM
How about Plumbing 101.

CGill311
05-08-2007, 12:54 PM
I like the DIY workshop. You could also add the kalkwasser doser as a simple DIY.

How about stand/canopy construction? I definitely like to learn that!

Stroid
05-08-2007, 1:00 PM
Topic: What is algae? And how to affect it effectivly.lol i totaly wrote that wrong
Topic: What is algae? And how to effectivly control it!

jmaneyapanda
05-08-2007, 1:10 PM
I woukld love to see one on clams. SOOOOO much misinformation out there. Maybe James Fatheree.

FutureInterest
05-08-2007, 1:23 PM
I would like to see one on clams as well. Also a lecture on efficient reefkeeping would interest me, but probably few others :P. By efficiency I'm talking about how to make your tank as low maintence as possible... possibly also cost effective methods for running a tank or setting one up... It could also include energy efficiency...

washowi
05-08-2007, 1:46 PM
Me I would love to get John Chatterton and Richie Kohler (dive legends) also hosts of Deep Sea Detectives. To give a talk to us at MACNA..They do trade shows all the time...You want to talk about drawing the masses.These guys will..

They are legends in deep diving. Identified the "U" Who - German U boat of NJ. Are the leaders of diving the Andria Doria. And too mant things else to name.

That would be a sell out.

I also liked the guy the Aquarium had talking about discoveries below 300 feet....Could listen to him for hours.....Thats what draws me.

dbm5557
05-08-2007, 1:51 PM
I second plumbing 101.

Or what about a workshop that went through all of the commonly confused corals and taught us how to identify them properly.

As an example, these get mixed up or are commonly mislabeled:

caphastra vs. encrusting montis
eflo vs. soli
poccillipora vs. stylopora

dough
05-08-2007, 3:46 PM
Years ago when another atlanta reef club now defuncted had I think Borneman in town to discuss hard corals. It was a very interesting discussion on types and environments of where they come from and tank set-ups. Still remember some discussions on temps. Drew a large crowd.

Cameron
05-08-2007, 4:01 PM
Getting better color from corals, common cost cutting methods, alternate filtration methods, ozone/UV an in depth dicussion, DIY modding a needlewheel, DIY rocks, even more info on flow in the aquarium and how to duplicate Jakes effects, as someone mentioned plumbing, a simple course on electrical wiring including some info on safety

Kevin
05-08-2007, 4:04 PM
This is GREAT! Keep the ideas coming.

Margi
05-08-2007, 4:25 PM
Considering the size of this event - and the planning involved - (i.e. - it can't be free!!!) What would YOU feel would be a good price point for:

Discounted Prepayment
Regular price

How about the price point for a hotel - would you pay more to be downtown within walking distance of the Aquarium if you were coming from out of town?

What raffle prizes would you buy the most tickets for a chance to win?

Thanks for the feedback!

SShindell
05-08-2007, 4:54 PM
Years ago when another atlanta reef club now defuncted had I think Borneman in town to discuss hard corals. It was a very interesting discussion on types and environments of where they come from and tank set-ups. Still remember some discussions on temps. Drew a large crowd.

That was us - we brought Eric in 2002, and again in 2005 and 2006. He was working on his dissertation this year, and could not come. I agree - it was a good presentation.

siege
05-08-2007, 7:10 PM
How about Plumbing 101.

Actually, that should be Hydrodynamics 101. Plumbing is the easy part, understanding how and why water behaves in various conditions/applications is really the key, plumbing would be more like Applied Hydrodynamics. :D

siege
05-08-2007, 7:20 PM
I also love the idea of lots of DIY workshops of various kinds, too. Ditto on everything Cameron and FutureInterest said, also.

Me? If speakers are coming from out of town, I'd jump at the ability to attend a workshop hosted by Leroy and Sally Jo from G.A.R.F. (http://garf.org) on whatever they would care to talk about.

Especially of interest to me is advice on setting up and maintaining low-cost, efficient and simple reef tanks of various sizes, from small to medium to large (as each of course presents it's own challenges).

Spike
05-08-2007, 10:11 PM
DIY, always good topics. I would love to learn to make DIY fish food,

JetChris
05-09-2007, 12:50 AM
Yes DIY workshops would be cool, like building a reactor. Also what cameron posted on here.

dough
05-09-2007, 1:15 AM
What's Jakes effects?

I would think any DYI course would involve costs for materials etc. Even if the one person is building it during the class. You would need to cover that.

At MACNA does that draw quite a few different suppliers to the conference anyway. Would they put on a presentation about why there products work. Say like Zeo presenting this is why our additive system is best for SPS systems.

Or hey how about something as simple a a DYI class on making your own phyto or food blends.

The Bornemen presentation must have been in '02 over hear in the Lawrencville area. But it seems longer than that.

Cameron
05-10-2007, 10:15 AM
Actually, that should be Hydrodynamics 101. Plumbing is the easy part, understanding how and why water behaves in various conditions/applications is really the key, plumbing would be more like Applied Hydrodynamics. I think plumbing is more descriptive and actually more accurate. Hydronamics in an aquarium relate more to flow in the main aquarium and I don't think anyone is really that interested in the math behind the flow. I would actually be interested in tips and techniques for better plumbing in the aquarium. I can glue pipes together pretty well and I know a couple things that most don't, but I bet there is a lot I don't actually know.

What's Jakes effects?If I understood properly, he got a 4' tank (90 gallons I think) running full flow with 4 maxijets by simply alternating them in the proper sequence. He bascially "rocked" the tank like you would a baby and got great flow from small pumps.

KRB
05-10-2007, 10:56 AM
... a simple course on electrical wiring including some info on safety

HUGE LIABILITY ISSUE

Cameron
05-10-2007, 11:13 AM
HUGE LIABILITY ISSUEWhy would a person talking about electricity and safety be a liability issue? Even if there were a demonstration on say building your own float switch or wiring a ballast, I don't think there would be any issue much less a HUGE LIABILITY issue. I have been to numerous car audio conferences and nobody has every had a problem with demoing wiring of amps, speakers and such. The last conference I went to actually showed how to do a DIY amp. The fragging demo we had in February was more dangerous than basic wiring 101.

washowi
05-10-2007, 1:48 PM
How the speakers guys? Who do you want to see?

siege
05-10-2007, 2:57 PM
I think plumbing is more descriptive and actually more accurate. Hydronamics in an aquarium relate more to flow in the main aquarium and I don't think anyone is really that interested in the math behind the flow. I would actually be interested in tips and techniques for better plumbing in the aquarium. I can glue pipes together pretty well and I know a couple things that most don't, but I bet there is a lot I don't actually know.

My reference to hydrodynamics was less about the water movement in the tank, and more in the vein of plumbing, in that water doesn't always do how people think it might, and plumbing can really effect that flow. An example is how we prevented our sump return and overflows from siphoning all the water out of our system in case of power loss by drilling a small hole in the return tube just as it enters the fish tank, below the level of the glass and at or just above the waterline. When power is lost, this small hole that squirts just a little water out under normal operation causes the siphon to break by allowing air in to the system, preventing a reverse siphon effect from occurring. The effect is easily enough understood once you see it in action, but the principle isn't quite common sense unless you're a long-time reefer or plumber. We considered, for example, using a ball valve off of the return line under the tank to supply water to the fuge, but my roomie pointed out that not only are these hard to fine-tune for water-flow, but that the pressure on the system might just turn that little opening into a pressure nozzle, and seriously degrade the performance of the sump.

Yes, plumbing in the end is still probably the best term, but I'd be just as interested in the hydrodynamic principles of the plumbing as I am ways to fit pipe parts together and the proper amount of teflon tape to use.

siege
05-10-2007, 2:57 PM
How the speakers guys? Who do you want to see?

Leroy and Sally Jo from G.A.R.F.

Cameron
05-10-2007, 4:32 PM
My reference to hydrodynamics was less about the water movement in the tank, and more in the vein of plumbing, in that water doesn't always do how people think it might, and plumbing can really effect that flow. An example is how we prevented our sump return and overflows from siphoning all the water out of our system in case of power loss by drilling a small hole in the return tube just as it enters the fish tank, below the level of the glass and at or just above the waterline. When power is lost, this small hole that squirts just a little water out under normal operation causes the siphon to break by allowing air in to the system, preventing a reverse siphon effect from occurring. The effect is easily enough understood once you see it in action, but the principle isn't quite common sense unless you're a long-time reefer or plumber. We considered, for example, using a ball valve off of the return line under the tank to supply water to the fuge, but my roomie pointed out that not only are these hard to fine-tune for water-flow, but that the pressure on the system might just turn that little opening into a pressure nozzle, and seriously degrade the performance of the sump.

Yes, plumbing in the end is still probably the best term, but I'd be just as interested in the hydrodynamic principles of the plumbing as I am ways to fit pipe parts together and the proper amount of teflon tape to use.I agree those are all good topics to discuss.

I wouldn't T from the return into the fuge but rather from the drain. More nutrients will flow into the fuge that way.

BTW, I personally point two of my four locline ends above the water line. One to stop the reverse syphon, but also to increase oxygenation of the water. Also, I warn everyone I know to avoid teflon tape under pressure because it will likely fail eventually and often leaks immediately.

Kevin
05-10-2007, 5:00 PM
We would love to bring in a lot of SCUBA speakers as they are not usual speakers at Marine Conferences

siege
05-10-2007, 5:14 PM
I agree those are all good topics to discuss.

I wouldn't T from the return into the fuge but rather from the drain. More nutrients will flow into the fuge that way.

BTW, I personally point two of my four locline ends above the water line. One to stop the reverse syphon, but also to increase oxygenation of the water. Also, I warn everyone I know to avoid teflon tape under pressure because it will likely fail eventually and often leaks immediately.

We chose not to utilize that method, but a much cheaper one instead. Since it's a HOB fuge that is actually propped up against my sump-box, I use a power-head to get the flow started, and then let gravity do the work of carrying the water down into the fuge and simply have the tubing that runs to the fuge wedged in just so in my overflow box; this way the siphon on the fuge line actually breaks even before the flow down to the sump box does (the end of the tubing is in the internal overflow, but hanging just above the water-line in the external over-flow box), which is good since my fuge's return feed dumps in right on top of my sump itself, thus preventing an overflow in my sump.

I never considered failure of teflon-tape on non-threaded plumbing, but that's good to know. There is none anywhere on my tank's plumbing, only in the plumbing for my RO/DI as recommended by the manufacturer... Guess what?

It leaks.

KRB
05-10-2007, 5:53 PM
Why would a person talking about electricity and safety be a liability issue? Even if there were a demonstration on say building your own float switch or wiring a ballast, I don't think there would be any issue much less a HUGE LIABILITY issue. I have been to numerous car audio conferences and nobody has every had a problem with demoing wiring of amps, speakers and such. The last conference I went to actually showed how to do a DIY amp. The fragging demo we had in February was more dangerous than basic wiring 101.
I agree that electrical wiring is not difficult by any means. But if you are showing how to wire something up and one of the attendees goes home and tries it, does it incorrectly, and burns down their house, lawsuits are very possible. Miswiring a ballast can be a fire hazard. Car audio is a vastly different beast we're talking 12 volts vs. 120 volts

Cameron
05-10-2007, 6:14 PM
I agree that electrical wiring is not difficult by any means. But if you are showing how to wire something up and one of the attendees goes home and tries it, does it incorrectly, and burns down their house, lawsuits are very possible. Miswiring a ballast can be a fire hazard. Car audio is a vastly different beast we're talking 12 volts vs. 120 voltsIt isn't volts that kill you it is amps and that is entirely based on the circuit design. You can get hit by 200,000 volts and walk away from it. If my choice is to eat a 250w ballast or eat 800 watts of car audio amplifier output... I will take the ballast.

As for someone showing you how to do something and you going home and screwing it up, you can't sue for that and win. No insurance company is going to take a threat like that into consideration. If so, there wouldn't be fragging demos, construction projects demo'd at places like home depot, snake handling shows, etc. Absolute worst case scenario you could ask people to sign a waiver, but that is WAY overkill. I don't even think you would need a disclaimer in front of the presentation.

KRB
05-10-2007, 7:01 PM
It isn't volts that kill you it is amps and that is entirely based on the circuit design. You can get hit by 200,000 volts and walk away from it. If my choice is to eat a 250w ballast or eat 800 watts of car audio amplifier output... I will take the ballast.

As for someone showing you how to do something and you going home and screwing it up, you can't sue for that and win. No insurance company is going to take a threat like that into consideration. If so, there wouldn't be fragging demos, construction projects demo'd at places like home depot, snake handling shows, etc. Absolute worst case scenario you could ask people to sign a waiver, but that is WAY overkill. I don't even think you would need a disclaimer in front of the presentation.
I didn't mention anything killing anyone. I was speaking of fire hazards. low voltage systems rarely catch fire. High voltage (over 50 volts) systems do regularly.

Sure you could sue for that. Why do think their are disclaimers on shows like jackass and what not. Ask a liability insurance company what the premium difference would be between a show with an electrical demo and one without.

Anyway, it is not that big a deal. if you want to learn to wire something up there are plenty of how to books at home depot. It is not hard.

disclaimer: I in no way encourage jackasses to try and wire any electrical devices without proper certifications and licensing from the local electrical union and state licensing boards:P

Lenny
05-10-2007, 7:11 PM
Topics I'd like to see:

Photography: For amateurs to get good pics :)

Nitrate control

Breeding of various types of shrimps and copepod-type critters

I also like the earlier idea that there could be two tracks for certain topics, a more basic, and a more advanced.

Cameron
05-10-2007, 7:16 PM
I didn't mention anything killing anyone. I was speaking of fire hazards. low voltage systems rarely catch fire. High voltage (over 50 volts) systems do regularly.In my experience, car fires from faulty wiring are VERY common. I personally have smoked more zero gauge wire from dropping screwdriver at the wrong time than I ever have wiring a home. Voltage has very little to do with fire. Voltage is oft misunderstood.

Sure you could sue for that. Why do think their are disclaimers on shows like jackass and what not. Ask a liability insurance company what the premium difference would be between a show with no electrical demo and one without.I didn't say you couldn't sue. I said you couldn't sue and win. If someone ever did sue and win, nobody would ever show anyone anything DIY. There are websites with photo how tos, books, videos, TV shows etc on doing this stuff and they are no more or less liable as the information is exactly the same only the media is changing. The only reason an insurance company would care is if someone could be injured during a demonstration not somebody sueing for personal injury or loss by trying something at home.

Anyway, it is not that big a deal. if you want to learn to wire something up there are plenty of how to books at home depot. It is not hard.Why would this media be any less liable for showing you how to do something?

as for jackassTwo things cause that disclaimer. First, standard boiler plate you see in every movie/TV show credits. Second, it has been argued in court that these shows promote and encourage dangerous and reckless behavoir. Showing someone how to safely wire a ballast does not fall into this category.

I shot an email to my lawyer to see what she thinks, but I bet she will back me up on this.

KRB
05-10-2007, 7:35 PM
In my experience, car fires from faulty wiring are VERY common. I personally have smoked more zero gauge wire from dropping screwdriver at the wrong time than I ever have wiring a home. Voltage has very little to do with fire. Voltage is oft misunderstood.

I didn't say you couldn't sue. I said you couldn't sue and win. If someone ever did sue and win, nobody would ever show anyone anything DIY. There are websites with photo how tos, books, videos, TV shows etc on doing this stuff and they are no more or less liable as the information is exactly the same only the media is changing. The only reason an insurance company would care is if someone could be injured during a demonstration not somebody sueing for personal injury or loss by trying something at home.

Why would this media be any less liable for showing you how to do something?

Two things cause that disclaimer. First, standard boiler plate you see in every movie/TV show credits. Second, it has been argued in court that these shows promote and encourage dangerous and reckless behavoir. Showing someone how to safely wire a ballast does not fall into this category.

I shot an email to my lawyer to see what she thinks, but I bet she will back me up on this.
There are disclaimers in all how to books that deal with anything that could potentially cause damage and/or injury. I am sure there are disclaimers on any show that does the same. Any demo that doesn't provide a disclaimer is setting themselves up for a suit.

I am an electrician and am well aware of the definition of amps, volts, watts, ohms, etc. I was speaking of types of electrical systems when referring to low or high voltage. As for fire stats, look it up I am fairly sure that high voltage systems produce far more fires than low voltage systems.

Anyway, I am not that concerned with the liability of it. I am not the one paying the GL insurance or organizing the event. Truce?

Cameron
05-10-2007, 7:49 PM
There are disclaimers in all how to books that deal with anything that could potentially cause damage and/or injury. I am sure there are disclaimers on any show that does the same. Any demo that doesn't provide a disclaimer is setting themselves up for a suit. I am not against a disclaimer as I said above, but again I don't think someone writing a book or giving a presentation does so in fear of a lawsuit. Time and time again free speech rights alone protect a person from such nonsense.

I am an electrician and am well aware of the definition of amps, volts, watts, ohms, etc. I was speaking of types of electrical systems when referring to low or high voltage. As for fire stats, look it up I am fairly sure that high voltage systems produce far more fires than low voltage systems.Again situational and has much more to do with design than voltage. A 12V transformer isn't really any more or less of a fire hazard than a 120V transformer. They can both burn a house down or set a car on fire and will usually do so due to some fault in the design or implementation.

Anyway, I am not that concerned with the liability of it. I am not the one paying the GL insurance or organizing the event. Truce?Given how many people I have spoken with recently that don't know what a GFCI outlet is or simply don't run one, I think it is just a good idea to educate them on installing one in their home near their tanks. Showing them how to do it isn't a bad idea either. I liken it to cooking. You show people how to cook without going into long disclaimers, waivers etc about the fire being hot.

Kevin
05-10-2007, 8:49 PM
THese are all great ideas. They are a lot different than I have seen for recent conferences. I like hands-on stuff. THat is why the workshops at SWU were hands-on (Photography and Coral Fragging).

Keep these wonderful ideas coming as we can incorporate them into MACNA in 2008

washowi
05-10-2007, 8:57 PM
No More Fragging!!

Cameron
05-10-2007, 9:19 PM
You have a second on that one... unless they have free frags ;)

Xyzpdq0121
05-10-2007, 9:29 PM
Listen people, just because you know how to frag does not mean that everyone does. I think a fragging demos should be part of the line up. If you do not want to see it, don't go...

There must be people who want to see it or there would not a full room everytime one is put on.

Kevin
05-10-2007, 9:34 PM
If we put it behind closed doors, then Todd and Cameron don't have to look at it, LOL

Cameron
05-10-2007, 9:34 PM
Listen people, just because you know how to frag does not mean that everyone does. I think a fragging demos should be part of the line up. If you do not want to see it, don't go...

There must be people who want to see it or there would not a full room everytime one is put on.I think it has reached the point of saturation with the fragging demos at least for a while.

washowi
05-10-2007, 9:37 PM
Honestly - who doesn't know how to frag? you break it with your fingers, pliers, hammer...you cut it with a knife, scissors, razor blade...

you pick up the pieces..(all while wearing your goggles-remember)

glue to whatever rock or piece of who knows what....


wash your hands...take you goggles off.....and selll them for $10 a frag :)


Easy!!

SShindell
05-10-2007, 9:38 PM
Every year for three years running the fragging demo by Anthony Calfo and/or Eric Borneman has been are biggest draw, and receives the most positive comments. We forget that most people in the hobby have only been in the hobby less than a year (although Anthony's talk this year had a lot of new stuff on coral farming).

washowi
05-10-2007, 9:39 PM
Steve you forget...they get FREE frags!!!:)

SShindell
05-10-2007, 9:44 PM
Did we give them out? ****, I left too early.

Kevin
05-10-2007, 10:27 PM
We didn't give out any free frags in the Anthony Calfo fragging demonstration. In the fragging workshop, not many people took frags

washowi
05-11-2007, 7:38 PM
Just heard back from John Chatterton...he is in Viet Nam right now....

Looks promising.........September 2008 right? are the days locked in yet?

Steven Pro
05-12-2007, 10:03 AM
Every year for three years running the fragging demo by Anthony Calfo and/or Eric Borneman has been are biggest draw, and receives the most positive comments. We forget that most people in the hobby have only been in the hobby less than a year (although Anthony's talk this year had a lot of new stuff on coral farming).
Agreed. I have done some of these fragging demonsrations at IMAC and MACNA as well and they are always very well attended. And, they don't even give away the frags.

Lifestudent
05-12-2007, 12:43 PM
Just heard back from John Chatterton...he is in Viet Nam right now....

Looks promising.........September 2008 right? are the days locked in yet?

Hi Todd!

MACNA is always in either Sept or Oct.

Kevin and Margi are still negotiating the venue so it may be a few more weeks before we know what weekend MACNA XX will be.

Bob

Steven Pro
05-14-2007, 2:04 PM
Agreed. I have done some of these fragging demonsrations at IMAC and MACNA as well and they are always very well attended. And, they don't even give away the frags.

I should add that while these frag workshops are well attended, we also realize that a lot of MACNA attendees know how to propagate corals. So, the workshops are going to be in another room while we will have other speakers presenting at the same time in the main lecture hall.

jessezm
05-14-2007, 2:52 PM
My hunch is that while a lot of people know how to frag corals in theory, some aren't comfortable doing it until they actually see a coral hacked up by a 'pro' (no pun intended...).

Steven Pro
05-14-2007, 6:02 PM
My hunch is that while a lot of people know how to frag corals in theory, some aren't comfortable doing it until they actually see a coral hacked up by a 'pro' (no pun intended...).

You are right. And whenever I do one of these workshops, after I demonstrate a few items, I get people out of their seats and assist the attendees in doing some propagation.

Kevin
05-14-2007, 11:37 PM
You are right. And whenever I do one of these workshops, after I demonstrate a few items, I get people out of their seats and assist the attendees in doing some propagation.


That , we had a fragging deomonstration and then a hands-on workshop where people got to frag everything (leathers, sps, mushrooms, zoanthids and an anemone)

siege
05-15-2007, 12:56 AM
Listen people, just because you know how to frag does not mean that everyone does. I think a fragging demos should be part of the line up. If you do not want to see it, don't go...

There must be people who want to see it or there would not a full room everytime one is put on.

I might actually be less inclined to go if there weren't at least a beginner's workshop on coral fragging somewhere.

Cameron
05-15-2007, 8:23 AM
Clearly you are going to have a fragging workshop already at MACNA which is fine and probably a good idea since it is over a year away. Besides MACNA is big enough that if you skip the show you won't be stuck talking to the PFO lady for another 45 minutes. There was only so much you want to know about how revolutionary their product is.

My point is that you probably shouldn't have a fragging workshop for a while and hopefully there won't be another one soon. There were and are far more interesting things to hear about other than how to cut something or ship something. As an ARC member, I skipped that presentation because sitting and watching this for 45 minutes didn't seem like time well spent and I think I will be skipping any upcoming workshops of a similar theme.

How to setup a calcium reactor and dial it in... all over that... or even a presentation on getting calcium in the aquarium. How to build XYZ... interesting. Care and feeding of various livestock in a reef tank... yes.

Bleedingthought
05-15-2007, 12:13 PM
I do agree/believe that there are enough books, videos and threads online, and often local presentations on fragging that we could avoid having it exclusively at a conference. Now, if there are two presentations at the same time at the conference, one covering fragging and another covering a topic a little more beyond, two birds with one stone. ;)

washowi
05-15-2007, 2:24 PM
Cameron..I think you and me are the only ones that are over the fragging thing...You may be more lenient than me ..I say no more period....

Can't everyone just frag for themselves? Or how about, ask somebody to help you frag at your house? But to take a whole meeting and devote to watching somebody break or slice a coral and glue to a rock....

My god....boring!! Half the fun of this hobby is figuring stuff out on your own if you can...I discovered fragging when I used to break sh-t clean the tank...