View Full Version : Closed Loop Pumps


MattTVI
03-22-2007, 9:06 AM
I'm interested to see people's opinions on CL pumps. I'm thinking seriously, esp. w/ the recall on koralia #3s (which i have 2 of), of changing out to a CLM for the asthetic appeal (no phs in the tank).

Anyway, the pumps i'm looking at are:

Pump Cost Watts GPH GPH/W Noise
Sequence Dart 3600 $220.00 160 3600 22.5 52
Poseiden PS4 $159.99 145 1225 8.45 30
Little Giant 4-MDQX-SC $149.99 145 1325 9.14 noisy
GenX PCX-70 $164.99 180 1537 8.54 noisy

Initial cost on the sequence is high, and it seems to be one of the quieter pumps (couldn't find decible ratings on the little giant or genX, but anecdotal testimony is that they are both louder pumps), but it is the more efficient pump. The only problem is that it is at the upper limit of what my wife will allow me to spend... :D

Anybody have any opinions or other suggestions?

thanks,

Matt

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 9:39 AM
Sequence also makes the snapper pump...

$199.00 2500gph 98w 25.5gph/w <52 decibles (assumed)

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 9:54 AM
Matt... You are asking question that have been the thorn in my foot lately! :D I LOVE CL systems but have learned ALOT about pumps as of late! Your flow rate that you want to achieve is HIGH. How big is your system? I would look in the range of 2400gph for anything in the area of 100gallon - 240 gallon tank. If you are larger then that a 3600gph will be what you need. Smaller then that (55gal-90 gal) and I would go with a 1800gph pump.

As far as the pump, I am partial to Mags because they are cheap and I can run them in sump to make them quiet. Bad side is they eat up power and run hot in a sump and could heat up the water. The dart is the best way to go if you can afford it. VERY low power usage and very quiet. It would be my first choice if I were you!

FutureInterest
03-22-2007, 10:26 AM
If low noise is your priority then you have to go with the T4, its the quietest pump of the 4. I actually have to put my hand on it to know that its even running. I run a T4 as my return and picked up another one for my eventual closed loop...

Everyone says that the T4 adds heat to your system, which I'm sure it does but I've had no problem keeping my tank temperature +/- 1 degree with 1 T4. Anyways, I may have to switch to another pump if the second T4 makes the heat hard to control.

Are you going to use a oceanmotions device with your CL or a scwd or nada? Oceanmotions seems to be the way to go :). Sign up for the powerbuy in the ARC members forum.

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 10:47 AM
Hey, thanks for the reply!

This is for my closed loop in a 65g tank, so I'm leaning toward the Snapper which is 2500gph at only 98 watts. I would use 6x outlets on my CLM and do a fully enclosed loop ala Calfo's design. I'm aiming at 300-400gph per nozzle from the CLM. The 6 nozzles of the CLM and the 2 from the return would give me 8 sources of flow, much better than the 4 i have now w/ two "recall koralias" and the return.

I have a Mag 9.5, and I actually am considering downgrading to a Mag 7 or even a 5 for my return pump to quiet things up. IMO, the Mag 9.5 is too much pump for my sump... :) If I can convince my wife to let me get the snapper, that's what I'll do.

rhomer
03-22-2007, 11:04 AM
If low noise is your priority then you have to go with the T4, its the quietest pump of the 4. I actually have to put my hand on it to know that its even running. I run a T4 as my return and picked up another one for my eventual closed loop...

Everyone says that the T4 adds heat to your system, which I'm sure it does but I've had no problem keeping my tank temperature +/- 1 degree with 1 T4. Anyways, I may have to switch to another pump if the second T4 makes the heat hard to control.

Are you going to use a oceanmotions device with your CL or a scwd or nada? Oceanmotions seems to be the way to go :). Sign up for the powerbuy in the ARC members forum.

I second the T4 I have one and it is dead silent. You cannot hear this pump at all and the only way to check is to look in the tank at the flow, or put your hand on the pump. Which brings me to the second point. This pump gets hot very hot, too hot to touch. Reliable and very very quiet.

Is there going to be a powerbuy on the oceanmotions? If so I will be in on this, thanks to Cameron for helping me spend money.

Rob

FutureInterest
03-22-2007, 11:10 AM
Check the ARC forums... the thread hasn't seen any action of late... :(

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 11:12 AM
I second the T4 I have one and it is dead silent. You cannot hear this pump at all and the only way to check is to look in the tank at the flow, or put your hand on the pump. Which brings me to the second point. This pump gets hot very hot, too hot to touch. Reliable and very very quiet.

Is there going to be a powerbuy on the oceanmotions? If so I will be in on this, thanks to Cameron for helping me spend money.

Rob

Rob,

I was leaning toward the T4, but it just doesn't push enough volume for me to pull the trigger on it... :)

The way I look at it, the EuroReef skimmer is so noisy, a 52 decible Snapper will probably not even be noticed... :)

snapper = 1st choice
T4 = 2nd choice

thanks to everyone for their input,

Matt

rhomer
03-22-2007, 11:23 AM
Thats cool since your going to split up the flow so much. My T4 is on a spray bar and single loc line and my caps grow inverted like BigD's because there is just too much flow directed toward the coral. I figured it was time to spread the flow out a little more.


BTW sorry about the Koralia's. I hope they take care of you on that.


Rob

FutureInterest
03-22-2007, 11:27 AM
Are eductors no longer in style? I've never had one before but from my understanding as long as your pump is pressure rated you can increase your overall flow quite a bit without increasing your gph.

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 11:48 AM
Thats cool since your going to split up the flow so much. My T4 is on a spray bar and single loc line and my caps grow inverted like BigD's because there is just too much flow directed toward the coral. I figured it was time to spread the flow out a little more.


BTW sorry about the Koralia's. I hope they take care of you on that.


Rob

We'll see... :(

Drs Foster&Smith, MarineandReef, and some other vendors are being proactive about it and not asking questions, but my vendor is giving me trouble. I've asked them about why they don't seem to be interested in matching the offers of their competitors, so we'll see what they say.

thanks,

Matt

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 11:49 AM
Are eductors no longer in style? I've never had one before but from my understanding as long as your pump is pressure rated you can increase your overall flow quite a bit without increasing your gph.

I may be out to lunch, but I thought I read somewhere that eductors on a CL don't work too well because the flow is concentrated, unlike the stream style pumps which produce a more dispersed flow. Apparently the eductors are like concentrated JETS... :)

like I said though, i may be off my rocker on this one...

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 1:17 PM
Hey, thanks for the reply!

This is for my closed loop in a 65g tank, so I'm leaning toward the Snapper which is 2500gph at only 98 watts. I would use 6x outlets on my CLM and do a fully enclosed loop ala Calfo's design. I'm aiming at 300-400gph per nozzle from the CLM. The 6 nozzles of the CLM and the 2 from the return would give me 8 sources of flow, much better than the 4 i have now w/ two "recall koralias" and the return.

I have a Mag 9.5, and I actually am considering downgrading to a Mag 7 or even a 5 for my return pump to quiet things up. IMO, the Mag 9.5 is too much pump for my sump... :) If I can convince my wife to let me get the snapper, that's what I'll do.

Matt, I think you are going to find this is a bit over kill even with the snapper... I have a first hand design from Calfo (He is a diving buddy of mine). Do me a favor and try this if you do not mind. Take your 9.5, build your closed loop with 1/2" PVC straight from the pump, and see how that works. If you want, you can come see mine that I am rebuilding right now. I went with 3/4" pvc and the pressure is not great enough. If I were to go with 1/2" the 9.5 would be enough for atleast 5 outlets but I regress. I have tried a Mag 36 and 2400gph pump and everything was way too much. granted I keep softies and LPS so sps can handle more but still. I would not go any greater then a Mag 18 or the equivalant. So I suggest trying to use your Mag 9.5, building the CL with 6 outlets (capping one if need be) and i gaurentee that will work (ok about 90% sure).

Just my input and experience.

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 1:36 PM
Matt, I think you are going to find this is a bit over kill even with the snapper... I have a first hand design from Calfo (He is a diving buddy of mine). Do me a favor and try this if you do not mind. Take your 9.5, build your closed loop with 1/2" PVC straight from the pump, and see how that works. If you want, you can come see mine that I am rebuilding right now. I went with 3/4" pvc and the pressure is not great enough. If I were to go with 1/2" the 9.5 would be enough for atleast 5 outlets but I regress. I have tried a Mag 36 and 2400gph pump and everything was way too much. granted I keep softies and LPS so sps can handle more but still. I would not go any greater then a Mag 18 or the equivalant. So I suggest trying to use your Mag 9.5, building the CL with 6 outlets (capping one if need be) and i gaurentee that will work (ok about 90% sure).

Just my input and experience.

You know Calfo? That's pretty cool as he seems like a really cool guy.

Are you sure that my Mag 9.5 will be enough juice for my closed loop? I get about 800gph and I'm looking for 25-30x in tank turnover which the 800gph can't match.

thanks,

Matt

rhomer
03-22-2007, 1:42 PM
I think if you run the mag 9.5 over the top of the tank to the floor restricted to 1/2 when it wants to run 3/4 you will not get the flow you are looking for. But I do agree that the snapper (assuming this is the sequence) is going to be a lot of flow.
I have 1200 gph out of my T4 and a 4 ft tank and it is a ton of flow. Before I put the spray bar on, the sand on the other end of the tank was piling up.

It's up to you, but the sequence is going to require a lot of outlets.

Rob

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 1:45 PM
I think if you run the mag 9.5 over the top of the tank to the floor restricted to 1/2 when it wants to run 3/4 you will not get the flow you are looking for. But I do agree that the snapper (assuming this is the sequence) is going to be a lot of flow.
I have 1200 gph out of my T4 and a 4 ft tank and it is a ton of flow. Before I put the spray bar on, the sand on the other end of the tank was piling up.

It's up to you, but the sequence is going to require a lot of outlets.

Rob

yeah, i have 2x koralias in there now producing 850gph each, if i can get a pump pushing about 2000gph after head loss, that'll give me 330gph +/- per nozzle. Do you think that would be too strong? If I used 1.5" pipe for the CLM, that should produce a fairly wide flow out of the nozzles, correct?

thanks guys,

Matt

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 1:47 PM
Ya I knew Fenner and Calfo from diving years ago when I was into reefing (about 10 years ago) I got out of the hobby and do not dive nearly as much as I want to, but I get to call on them with questions for the tough stuff! Great perk of friends in this hobby!

There is pretty much no headloss with a CL.. Like I said, it is worth a try instead of dropping $200 for a new pump, spend $15 on PVC and try it. I wish I would have tried 1/2" PVC the first go around then I would be able to tell you for sure. I got a 2400gph pump on there now with 6 outlets and a spraybar and it is too much IMHO. I am using 3/4" PVC so the pressure of a Mag 18 (or even a 9.5) running through 1/2" should be enough. I use 1/2" outlets, you chould even go with something a bit smaller if need be. If you use the 2400gph pump, go 3/4" PVC at the least... What corals are you keeping?

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 1:49 PM
Ya I knew Fenner and Calfo from diving years ago when I was into reefing (about 10 years ago) I got out of the hobby and do not dive nearly as much as I want to, but I get to call on them with questions for the tough stuff! Great perk of friends in this hobby!

There is pretty much no headloss with a CL.. Like I said, it is worth a try instead of dropping $200 for a new pump, spend $15 on PVC and try it. I wish I would have tried 1/2" PVC the first go around then I would be able to tell you for sure. I got a 2400gph pump on there now with 6 outlets and a spraybar and it is too much IMHO. I am using 3/4" PVC so the pressure of a Mag 18 (or even a 9.5) running through 1/2" should be enough. I use 1/2" outlets, you chould even go with something a bit smaller if need be. If you use the 2400gph pump, go 3/4" PVC at the least... What corals are you keeping?

no coral, this tank will have a bunch of anenome's in it... all BTA's from the same clone, only 1x bta right now, but i'm hoping it'll start cloning after it gets big.

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 1:50 PM
I think if you run the mag 9.5 over the top of the tank to the floor restricted to 1/2 when it wants to run 3/4 you will not get the flow you are looking for.

You are only increasing the pressure in the PVC at that point. The decrease in PVC size should to restrict the output in the pump much.

Hell in that case run a 9.5 and plump in some pvc at the outlets with holes in it (I forget what the tech name for the physics behind it is) but it will act like a cannon out of each nozzel..

rhomer
03-22-2007, 1:52 PM
Brandon I'm not trying to step on your toes, but I did this with a mag 5 and the water barely trickled out.

Now I know that the mag 9.5 is almost twice as much, but I do know that Mags are designed to run in sump and don't perform as well as external or cl pumps.

Brandon does have good point of your out 20 bucks and 3 hours to try it.

Rob

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 1:57 PM
A few more details, gentlemen.

This CL will go over the back of the tank and drop about 2' to the pump and then be pumped back up to the CLM.

thanks,

Matt

rhomer
03-22-2007, 1:58 PM
You are only increasing the pressure in the PVC at that point. The decrease in PVC size should to restrict the output in the pump much.

Hell in that case run a 9.5 and plump in some pvc at the outlets with holes in it (I forget what the tech name for the physics behind it is) but it will act like a cannon out of each nozzel..

Were talking apples and oranges here. I've been talking about tank turnover and your talking about water velocity. No matter how much you restirct the output of the water your still getting the same gph or less, but you will increase the velocity of the water out of the pipe.


If you want to turn the tank over 20x then you need a pump that will do this.


Matt,
With a tank full of anemone's this is a great idea to have a closed loop. this prevents the unfortunate chance of one getting pulled into a Power head, but I don't think you need that much flow for an anemone only tank. The mag 9.5 might be enough.

Rob

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 2:00 PM
Were talking apples and oranges here. I've been talking about tank turnover and your talking about water velocity. No matter how much you restirct the output of the water your still getting the same gph or less, but you will increase the velocity of the water out of the pipe.


If you want to turn the tank over 20x then need a pump that will do this.


Matt,
With a tank full of anemone's this is a great idea to have a closed loop. this prevents the unfortunate chance of one getting pulled into a Power head, but I don't think you need that much flow for an anemone only tank. The mag 9.5 might be enough.

Rob

yeah, the CL works nicely as the intake can be spread out over a larger area as opposed to the concentrated powerhead, i had intended to build small boxes around each ph, but now that they have the recall going, i think it's a good time to switch to a CLM.

i want the higher in tank turnover to keep detrious in the water column and dead spots to a minimum. That's why i'm targeting the 30x +/- figure, the reef itself sees a lot more movement than that even... :)

rhomer
03-22-2007, 2:03 PM
Well, its all up to you, but I can tell you if you want 30x turn over, the math is quite simple to calculate and this will tell you the pump to get.

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php


Rob

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 2:10 PM
Were talking apples and oranges here. I've been talking about tank turnover and your talking about water velocity. No matter how much you restirct the output of the water your still getting the same gph or less, but you will increase the velocity of the water out of the pipe.


If you want to turn the tank over 20x then you need a pump that will do this.


Matt,
With a tank full of anemone's this is a great idea to have a closed loop. this prevents the unfortunate chance of one getting pulled into a Power head, but I don't think you need that much flow for an anemone only tank. The mag 9.5 might be enough.

Rob

Rob, You are right, we are comparing apples to oranges. For a BTA tank, where filter feeding is not a huge priority, valocity is more of a concern then GPH. I am just all about saving money when need be and Matt can achieve good results witha MAG 9.5 or 18 over a 2400GPH pump.

rhomer
03-22-2007, 2:14 PM
Agreed, if it were me I wouldn't put that much flow in a tank housing only anemones, but I would put in a closed loop.


Rob

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 2:29 PM
Well... :)

Perhaps I'll go w/ the poseidin... i'm a little leary of using a mag-drive pump externally, even though I know many people have done so... I may go w/ the Mag18 in the end to save some cash... but I'm still thinking along the lines of the squence snapper as it is only 98w in power consumption... :)

the poseidin and mag18 are each 140w+... on a 15amp outlet that's already getting close to 10amps used up for the tank alone, I'm trying to avoid pushing it as much as possible, even if it means spending a little more for a more efficient pump.

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 2:32 PM
Well... :)

the poseidin and mag18 are each 140w+... on a 15amp outlet that's already getting close to 10amps used up for the tank alone, I'm trying to avoid pushing it as much as possible, even if it means spending a little more for a more efficient pump.


Some thing to think about for sure... I wish I had my Mag 18 right now ( I have yet to order it, Maybe this weekend) so I could give you better advice about the end result.

George
03-22-2007, 3:55 PM
Well... :)

Perhaps I'll go w/ the poseidin... i'm a little leary of using a mag-drive pump externally, even though I know many people have done so... I may go w/ the Mag18 in the end to save some cash... but I'm still thinking along the lines of the squence snapper as it is only 98w in power consumption... :)

the poseidin and mag18 are each 140w+... on a 15amp outlet that's already getting close to 10amps used up for the tank alone, I'm trying to avoid pushing it as much as possible, even if it means spending a little more for a more efficient pump.
Was there an argument against getting the Snapper and throttling it back vs. getting a lower rated, but much higher power consumption pump?

BTW, according to MDM, throttling the Reef Flo pumps (http://www.reeflopumps.com/) will reduce power consumption and not lessen the life of the pump.

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 4:05 PM
Was there an argument against getting the Snapper and throttling it back vs. getting a lower rated, but much higher power consumption pump?

BTW, according to MDM, throttling the Reef Flo pumps (http://www.reeflopumps.com/ (http://www.reeflopumps.com/)) will reduce power consumption and not lessen the life of the pump.

I don't know of any reason why you couldn't throttle the snapper back, some sequences have built in control for adjustment. Does the snapper?

Even if it doesn't, I can throttle it back as there will be a ball valve on the loop for when I have to service the pump.

thanks, great post!

Matt

George
03-22-2007, 4:22 PM
After looking at that calculator on RC, I'm thinking that I might get the Snapper since after the friction loss around the corners and through valves and unions, I'd be right around my target 1800 gph for my 60 gallon cube.

The planning will have to be careful though. 2x2 area doesn't leave much room for lights *and* 1 1/2" pipes.

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 4:29 PM
After looking at that calculator on RC, I'm thinking that I might get the Snapper since after the friction loss around the corners and through valves and unions, I'd be right around my target 1800 gph for my 60 gallon cube.

The planning will have to be careful though. 2x2 area doesn't leave much room for lights *and* 1 1/2" pipes.

You need to slap a 250w MH over that tank and hang it 10-12" above the surface, no problems then... :)

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 5:49 PM
dang it...

looks like it's a bad idea to go over the wall of the tank w/ a sequence pump. anybody doing it?

George
03-22-2007, 5:55 PM
dang it...

looks like it's a bad idea to go over the wall of the tank w/ a sequence pump. anybody doing it?
Why is it a bad idea?

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 5:57 PM
Why is it a bad idea?

I found an old post by anthony calfo on RC where he said it was a bad idea. Apparently these pumps are meant to be flooded w/ water, they are not designed to "suck" water like a submersable... :(

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 6:02 PM
NAtt, that is true but in theory the pump will only have to suck for the first turn on, after that a siphon effect should take place to some extent. I do not know much about sequence pumps in this regard though.

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 6:07 PM
NAtt, that is true but in theory the pump will only have to suck for the first turn on, after that a siphon effect should take place to some extent. I do not know much about sequence pumps in this regard though.

Who's NAtt?!? :D

I know that should work, but for the long term success of the pump, it may not be... I think I will try and call sequence after this conference call I'm on and ask them about it... :)

thanks,

Matt

George
03-22-2007, 6:09 PM
Theoretically, unless you're doing a tear-down or major water change, your closed loop should always be flooded. The cohesion of water should pull it up and down. The pump has to be able to do some sucking of water. There's simply no way gravity can feed a pump 3600 gph through a 1 1/2" hole without some force.

The intake just needs to be below the lowest level the water can drop to if the power goes off.

Or, for that matter, how about construct a self-priming container to put in front of it? Or you could buy one http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=DP2919

Yes, I like this last idea best of all. :)

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 6:11 PM
Theoretically, unless you're doing a tear-down or major water change, your closed loop should always be flooded. The cohesion of water should pull it up and down. The pump has to be able to do some sucking of water. There's simply no way gravity can feed a pump 3600 gph through a 1 1/2" hole without some force.

The intake just needs to be below the lowest level the water can drop to if the power goes off.

Or, for that matter, how about construct a self-priming container to put in front of it? Or you could buy one http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=DP2919

Yes, I like this last idea best of all. :)

oh, that is reasuring, what i was thinking was a tee at the top of the CL as it went over the back of the tank w/a threaded cap on it, i could feed that full of water before turning the pump on, then cap it and fire it up.

would that work?

George
03-22-2007, 6:13 PM
oh, that is reasuring, what i was thinking was a tee at the top of the CL as it went over the back of the tank w/a threaded cap on it, i could feed that full of water before turning the pump on, then cap it and fire it up.

would that work?
Probably. Basically the same thing without the big basket.

However the self-priming basket (bought or DIY) would ensure you were primed on power outages.

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 6:20 PM
Would the CL ever be able to drain if there was no way for air to get into it?

In other words, all outlets and inlets are fully submersed to the point where even when the return cuts off the nozzles still stay submerged?

thanks!

btw, that primer box looks complicated, is it a difficult thing to build?

Matt

George
03-22-2007, 6:26 PM
The primer is simply a sort of "sump" of water attached to the front of the pump. The pump's initial pull on that volume of water sucks the part that lost siphon when the pump was shut off and the whole thing starts up again (you get some bubbles, though).

The only difficult part would be finding the combination of PVC parts that would mate a tube that could hold a volume of water to the input of the pump. There probably isn't alot of call for a 6"x1"x6" tee PVC pipe so creativity or a bunch of reducers would be involved.

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 6:31 PM
Matt you can forgo the whole primer box thing. As long as all inlets and outlets stay under water there is no problem if the pump starts and stops. I plumed a primer tube into the uptake using a 3/4" T connection and a small pipe and cap for the end. I just take the cap off if I ever need to prime the system (say I drop the water level doing a 50% water change for some reason.) Maybe I will try to take you some pics to help explain. Calfo's idea was good but I am a bit better of a polish engineer then he is.

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 6:34 PM
The primer is simply a sort of "sump" of water attached to the front of the pump. The pump's initial pull on that volume of water sucks the part that lost siphon when the pump was shut off and the whole thing starts up again (you get some bubbles, though).

The only difficult part would be finding the combination of PVC parts that would mate a tube that could hold a volume of water to the input of the pump. There probably isn't alot of call for a 6"x1"x6" tee PVC pipe so creativity or a bunch of reducers would be involved.

I'd have to take a peak at Home Depot, but don't they have something like that in their lawn-sprinkler area?

btw, found the old Calfo post. thought I'd post it here, so you could take a peak at it... :)

--------------------------------------------------------------
"As for the pump feed... alas, this is not an option: the tank must be drilled if you are going to use the sequence pump. External pumps must be "flooded" (water flows freely into them directly).

Forcing them to draw up over the top of the tank via a siphon is not only bad plumbing (future complications with power interruptions, etc)... but above all... it will starve the pump for water flow and cause dreadful noise/cavitation.

If you cannot drill the tank, you then need a submersible pump (like a Mag drive) to feed the CL. Along with that come some (small) heat issues."

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=5370191#post5370191
---------------------------------------------------------------------

thanks!

I'd give you more rep, but I gots to spread the love around!

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 6:36 PM
Matt you can forgo the whole primer box thing. As long as all inlets and outlets stay under water there is no problem if the pump starts and stops. I plumed a primer tube into the uptake using a 3/4" T connection and a small pipe and cap for the end. I just take the cap off if I ever need to prime the system (say I drop the water level doing a 50% water change for some reason.) Maybe I will try to take you some pics to help explain. Calfo's idea was good but I am a bit better of a polish engineer then he is.

oh my, my, my... :o
I'm going to file that one away and bring it up to him someday... :yay:

thanks!

I do weekly water changes that would drop the water level well below, so I would just need to remember to reprime the pump after every water change... right?

Matt

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 6:45 PM
actually, and i realize i'm pretty much talking to myself now...

wouldn't one of these swing check valves (http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=FT9077) plumbed somewhere after the outlet of the squence but before the actually manifold pretty much take care of the problem?

I realize they reduce flow, but Reeflo recommends throttling these bad boys back a wee bit.

thanks,

Matt

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 7:14 PM
Probably. Basically the same thing without the big basket.

However the self-priming basket (bought or DIY) would ensure you were primed on power outages.


Oops I should have read the rest of the thread! :doh:

In a power outage as long as the water line does not drop below your intake no need to prime. I have my intake line drilled with holes to disapte the force of the uptake.. If you want a new pump out of your list the GenX or Posiden would be my choice (the PS4 taking the billing because of how quiet it is). Just know you have to plumb it with vinyl tubing for the input and output. Which is good because that is how I like to plub it.

Yes you would have to reprime it each time but your idea of a screw cap works fine... That is how mine is on..

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 7:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------
"As for the pump feed... alas, this is not an option: the tank must be drilled if you are going to use the sequence pump. External pumps must be "flooded" (water flows freely into them directly).

Forcing them to draw up over the top of the tank via a siphon is not only bad plumbing (future complications with power interruptions, etc)... but above all... it will starve the pump for water flow and cause dreadful noise/cavitation.

If you cannot drill the tank, you then need a submersible pump (like a Mag drive) to feed the CL. Along with that come some (small) heat issues."




We if that is what the man says then I tend to believe him. He knows more about plumbig then I do. I work off of theory, he knows facts. I see his point about noise/cavitation but I do not know how much impact it will have in the end. I fail to see how the pump will starve but again, him and cameron know more then I do about pumps and such!

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 7:20 PM
the vinyl tubing is for the Poseidin, correct?

the snapper looks like it is setup for threaded pvc... :)

I appreciate your input brandon; it has been most helpful. I do have a question though, given that the manifold is above the input, wouldn't the water in the CLM syphon back into the tank when the water line dropped below the output nozzles?

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 7:23 PM
Yes the poseiden need vinyl tubing.. It is a 1" barb connection.

As for your last question, yes, hence why you need to prime it if you drop the water level that low. (I think I mispoke when I said "as long as it does not drop below the intake" I meant to say intake/outtake.)

Cameron
03-22-2007, 7:23 PM
I am sure someone posted this earlier...

http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html

I have seen at least two setups with a Dart that did an over the back design using something very similar to the link above and it had no reported problems. I believe Sams tank runs that way:

http://samsreef.com/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,27/page,view/catid,1/PageNo,3/key,21/hit,1/

MattTVI
03-22-2007, 7:26 PM
I am sure someone posted this earlier...

http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html

I have seen at least two setups with a Dart that did an over the back design using something very similar to the link above and it had no reported problems. I believe Sams tank runs that way:

http://samsreef.com/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,27/page,view/catid,1/PageNo,3/key,21/hit,1/



lol, like magic he appears... :)

I just pm'ed you for your opinion on this one... :)

I guess the only thing left to do is find out if I really have 6.5" between my tank and the wall to fit this darn monster pump in...

As for Melev's design, I like it but instead of 2 simple outlets, I was going to do an enclosed mainfold that sat atop the tank. No problems w/ that, correct?

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 7:38 PM
Matt,

No problems there, mine is set up as a hybred between calfo's loop and the Melev's loop. Notice the primer tube.

Xyzpdq0121
03-22-2007, 7:40 PM
lol, like magic he appears... :)


No, more like th Bat light that batman uses!! He shows up like a super hero when a fellow reefer is in need!!!

Cameron
03-22-2007, 7:48 PM
I wish I had the answer to my design. I have four 1" holes (two overflows) in the bottom of my tank and I haven't quite figured out how I am going to plumb it. I think I have the outtake of the CL/sump down (by going over the top on both... spray bar for sump nozzle for CL), but not sure how I am going to plumb the intake with stand pipes. Maybe two Dursos for the sump (as it is now) and two PVC pipes with a bunch of holes in the other intakes. Gah... I don't know.

FutureInterest
03-22-2007, 11:25 PM
Yes the poseiden need vinyl tubing.. It is a 1" barb connection.



Odd both my T4's are threaded... Perhaps its because they are velocity T4's.

Hmmm... since you're doing an anenome only tank I guess you can have as much flow as you want... since you have no fear of them moving onto your favorite clam or corals. Although, from my limited personal experience, I have found that my anenomes hate a lot of flow and will choose the relative dead spots in the tank. When they're in too much flow their tentacles tend to spin into knots which just looks painful :p.

Xyzpdq0121
03-23-2007, 1:38 AM
Hig flow for acros = good

High flow for most softies, LPS, Anenomes = Bad

Tank turn over is not as important as velocity IMHO because they are not really filter feeders.

MattTVI
03-23-2007, 12:11 PM
Hig flow for acros = good

High flow for most softies, LPS, Anenomes = Bad

Tank turn over is not as important as velocity IMHO because they are not really filter feeders.

Well, I'm trying to go w/ the generalized 30-40 rule that Calfo seems to like. I posted a question about my plans over in his forum. He's a busy guy though so no answer yet.

Again, I appreciate all the feed back, folks!

Matt

George
03-23-2007, 12:55 PM
Forcing them to draw up over the top of the tank via a siphon is not only bad plumbing (future complications with power interruptions, etc)... but above all... it will starve the pump for water flow and cause dreadful noise/cavitation.
I agree that Anthony has way, way more experience than I at this hobby, but the physics of fluid motion disagree with him IF you design the system to never break siphon.

For example:

If you have a 2' tall tank and the pipe goes over the side to a pump down by the side of the tank, you have maybe 4"-6" that the water has to go up, followed by a 2'+ drop to the pump. That 2' column of water pulls with much more force than the part that rises out of the tank. I would think that if you took that into consideration in designing the flow and volume of the intake pipe, you could ensure that the pump is never starved.

A gravity feed below the water line would be the max water flow, but I don't think that over the top means it's impossible to feed the pump enough water.

You could just as easily starve the pump by not giving it a big enough hole in the side of your tank.

MattTVI
03-23-2007, 1:04 PM
George,

Thanks for the info. I think I may be able to do it, but it's going to be a tight space between the back of the tank and the wall. I'm just over 6.5 inches which is the width that the snapper is listed at.

I don't know if anybody commented on the check valve after the outlet on the pipe, but that would effectively prevent a complete symphon out of the manifold and back into the tank, correct?

thanks,

Matt

wbholwell
03-23-2007, 1:28 PM
You shouldn't need the check valve, just plumb it like Mel's reef & you'll be fine. Even if you empty the tank, water should remain in the CL system up to the point of your lowest bend (assuming the pump remains off!). You will need the "Up-tube" with threaded cap, however, to prime the system before the first use.

MattTVI
03-23-2007, 1:34 PM
You shouldn't need the check valve, just plumb it like Mel's reef & you'll be fine. Even if you empty the tank, water should remain in the CL system up to the point of your lowest bend (assuming the pump remains off!). You will need the "Up-tube" with threaded cap, however, to prime the system before the first use.

Bryan,

thanks, I've been looking at Melev's CL for a while, but he uses a submersible Mag 7 in his design which supposedly is more capable as a syphon fed pump on a CL.

I got the priming part down, i am thinking I may even build a completely sealed/enclosed acrylic resovoir right before the intake on the snapper. :)

thanks again,

Matt

wbholwell
03-23-2007, 1:54 PM
I'm 99.9% certain you won't have any problems using a Sequence Snapper pump in a similar CL system. The only air it will ever have to draw is about 6 or 8" of empty PVC (the first vertical portion from your intake.) The rest of the system you can fill through the threaded cap.

Oh, BTW, if you do decide to put a check valve inline after the pump, know that you'll get lots of air/bubbles pushed into the tank on initial startup. That's b/c check valves have a "cracking" pressure- usually a couple psi, so even if you flood the system before startup chances are the pipe/tube after the check valve will remain filled with air.

MattTVI
03-23-2007, 1:54 PM
here's a sketchup on the resivoire

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/MattTVI/DIY/ResSketch.jpg

wbholwell
03-23-2007, 1:58 PM
I really don't think you'll need such a priming resovoire. Basically the entire system (inlet tubing and outlet tubing) will serve the same function. If you want to increase the amount of water, you could oversize the inlet pipe.

MattTVI
03-23-2007, 2:28 PM
okay, but i like drawing things in sketchup... :)

Anybody have a dart or snapper and can verify that it is 6.5" wide and not 6.75" or 7"?

thanks,

Matt

MattTVI
03-23-2007, 2:45 PM
Well, I called ReeFlo, Inc., and there's some good news and some bad news...

Good News: they said it would work fine as a syphon fed pump

Bad News: it's closer to 7" wide... dagnabit! I'm at 6 5/8" behind the tank... :(

Xyzpdq0121
03-23-2007, 5:02 PM
Well, I'm trying to go w/ the generalized 30-40 rule that Calfo seems to like. I posted a question about my plans over in his forum. He's a busy guy though so no answer yet.

Again, I appreciate all the feed back, folks!

Matt

Ya I put in a call to Tony but I have not heard anything. (I needed to talk to him anyways about some stuff) I do know he is addicted to his boards so you should get some input before too long.


Well, I called ReeFlo, Inc., and there's some good news and some bad news...

Good News: they said it would work fine as a syphon fed pump

Bad News: it's closer to 7" wide... dagnabit! I'm at 6 5/8" behind the tank... :(

Mount it above your sump/fuge if you can. Just a thought.

wbholwell
03-23-2007, 5:26 PM
Mount it above your sump/fuge if you can. Just a thought.

I agree. The only thing that should affect your flow rate is the loss generated by extra lengths of pipe/tubing.

George
03-23-2007, 5:47 PM
Do any of our sponsors carry these pumps? The only place I've seen them is Premium Aquatics.

MattTVI
03-23-2007, 6:29 PM
speaking of vendors... :)

What do you guys thing of premium aquatics? I see that marineandreef.com carries it but are out of stock. As does customaquatic.com.

hmmmm, even the manual indicates it can be run via a syphon... :)
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/sequence/dart-man.pdf

and one last edit... Andy Diaz @ MRC has the DART but not the Snapper... I may still have to give him a call... :)

Cameron
03-23-2007, 9:12 PM
Premium Aquatics RULES! I love these guys. Super fast shipping and a good price. They also carry a lot of the more unique items like ReefChili. If you want a better price aquacave.com has them for $210 and shipping is quick, but not PA quick. I have ordered from both with great success.

BTW, I am going to try the Dart on an over the top setup very soon if you want to come by and check it out. I was going to drain from an overflow, but I am lazy and don't want to mess with that plumbing unless I have to. Most of the "experts" will tell you that you have to drill to use a sequence and that is the best way, but again I have seen two working setups that didn't have an issue and it is good to hear that the Sequence company backs up the small suction. I am a bit worried about back flow reversing the impellor, but worse that can happen is I smoke a $210 dollar pump which I think is less likely than a check vavle clogging.

Cameron
03-23-2007, 9:16 PM
BTW, I saw one of these sucking two feet up from a pond and it has been running without issue for about 6 months. I am sure the life of the pump is being shortend, but I am guessing not a lot.

MattTVI
03-24-2007, 1:12 AM
According to the installation manual, if you are going to position the dart/snapper above the water level (sort of what we are doing...) you should have a check valve below the water level. I may consider plumbing a check valve into the feed line that sits in the tank... :)

MattTVI
03-24-2007, 1:14 AM
BTW, I am going to try the Dart on an over the top setup very soon if you want to come by and check it out.

How soon? I'm keen to see it in action... :)

Cameron
03-24-2007, 4:22 AM
That check vavle may be very important since it prevents a back siphon and the impellor running in reverse. I am going to look and see where I can let air into the system safely on the out of the pump. Check vavles on a salt system are dangerous.... very dangerous. I think there is a better chance of the check vavle clogging and running the pump dry than a back syphon. Sooner or later that valve is going to clog. Different story on fresh water. I think if one of the out ports is half in/half out it would be virtually impossible to back syphon.

I am going to start working on it sometime M-F and should have it operational by next weekend.

MattTVI
03-25-2007, 6:11 PM
From an engineering standpoint, how does a magnetic drive pump, like the mag drive, differ from the snapper?

Would the mag drive be considered a self-priming pump? (I realize there are actual self-primeing pumps...)