My male H. erectus is/was due sometime tonight/early tomorrow. He's had one prior brood, took 13 days from mating to "delivery" (caught me off-guard that time too).

My original plan was to turn the main pump off tonight (details on my tank here: http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32689), put an airstone in it, and leave the skimmer on in the sump and just collect the babies tomorrow.

Well, this morning early I looked before lights on and didn't see the male, so I've been keeping a lookout for him.

A few minutes ago I saw him doing some contortions in the tank, so I quickly turned the main pump off. Quick check of the filter sock yielded one tiny (dead) baby.

I turned the lights on and he stayed still and sort of in hiding so I can't tell if he's "empty" or not.

All of my past experience was with H. reidi, and nothing interrupted their courtship or birthing once the process was started but I've found with this pair, the lights make everything stop - so I've got the lights back off, pump is still off and I'm "waiting" to see if something happens.

I *think* maybe he's let one or two go, but still has the rest... trying not to hover at the tank but I need to be ready if/when he lets the rest go.

Back in the day I used this same tank for my reidi, but I had an old-style standpipe with a sponge and a float on it. The babies would go into the overflow and stay there (no way through the sponge) and I'd simply siphon them off - it was quite an efficient collection device.

I think I need to find one of those again because of course they'll go right through the Durso and to their death in the filter sock (last brood I found one survivor, and 6 that didn't).

This is a young pair, last brood was their first brood, this is their second.

Since their M.O. seems to be somewhat different from the reidi I'm used to, anybody got any thoughts/suggestions?

I can't take pix either - lights out or they won't do a thing and I've already interfered enough I think.

Jenn

Well I may just have solved the problem. After watching and waiting, nothing was happening... I turned the lights on and fed them a bit earlier than usual. The male is always the slowest feeder but when he came out he did eat.

He still looked a bit full but not as much, but he was weird about his movements.

When I spotted him in the dark this morning he was doing a "flip" in the water column... not terribly unusual... but when he was moving around a little while ago it became clear that he had a gas bubble.

I have done pouch expressions many times but never when I thought there were fry in there. After pondering the options, he had let go of his holdfast and was rising to the top and couldn't swim down against the force of the bubble, so I grabbed a plastic pipette and expressed his pouch.

Lots of air bubbles, couldn't feel anything else in there. Not sure I got all the air, but I got most of it, and he's swimming right way up now.

My conclusion... based on the premature tiny single fry I found, he probably "miscarried".

His female looks gravid again so I'm hoping that he either takes a break, OR manages to flush himself out during courtship again to rid himself of any further bubbles.

I'll keep a close eye to make sure it doesn't come back... this is one of the pitfalls of male seahorses... pouch bloat.

Jenn

Update: Things seem back to normal. I saw the male courting his lady last night. I don't know if they "closed the deal" yet - and it's too early to tell this morning, but he seems unphased after his little ailment earlier in the week.

Jenn

Pardon my ignorance on sea horses but, explain to me how the air bubbles came to be.

There are several theories and possible causes.

In this instance, I believe that his undeveloped eggs/fry, died in his pouch, and began to decompose. The decomposition causes gasses to build up, creating a bubble in his pouch, which caused him to literally float up to the surface unless he could swim down against the force of the bubble.

I've seen infections too, cause this. I was concerned that he'd developed an infection but so far, he seems otherwise unaffected.

I daresay if he hadn't managed to evacuate the "solids" out of the pouch, an infection would have resulted. When I did express the air, there was nothing else that came out (ie no fry, no eggs). He had been incubating eggs and was due to deliver that night or the next morning, and all had appeared fine until that point.

There is a theory also that bubbles in the water column can get trapped in the pouch when the males either display or release fry. I'm not convinced that's a cause, but I have nothing to dispute it with either, other than bubbles occur in the wild in the water column. I suppose it's possible.

When they court especially, they "pump" or "jackknife" ... they open the pouch and flush water through it to display. They are likely releasing pheromones during this, to help condition the female (pers. communication with Peter Giwojna), and during the hours leading to mating, this flushing can happen many times.

Similarly, when they release fry, they draw water into the pouch, then jackknife to expel the fry. I suppose bubbles can get trapped then also.

Problems happen in any event, when there's gas in the pouch to the extent that it interferes with their swimming upright, and they are then unable to properly flush the pouch on their own.

Expressing the pouch involves holding the seahorse upside down, with as much of his body under water, gently massaging the gas bubble to the pouch opening, and carefully opening the pouch and working the gas out of it. In the past I've used a plastic tipped bobby pin, but nowadays I find a soft plastic pipette works best. Don't insert it into the pouch, just gently press on one side of the opening, to pry it open, while using my thumb to guide the gas bubble toward the opening, and a little stream of bubbles will escape.

Takes a bit of practice to be able to hold an often-uncooperative creature as still as possible in an unnatural position and get the job done, but once one has done it a few times, it's not so tricky.

I had one horse that had this condition frequently (some years ago) and he more or less got used to the procedure, and seemed to "understand" that he'd have relief after it.

Jenn

Hrmm... well this clearly demonstrates why I usually recommend novice seahorse keepers to start with just females: So they don't have to deal with unwanted pregnancy and other "gynecological" issues.

I've been on "birth watch" for a couple of days. After the last posts, I saw the male courting his female again but had to go to work so I wasn't sure if they'd actually completed things.

The male looked "full" but hard to tell if he was carrying or not - he's still young and so is the female so I don't expect them to be producing to full capacity.

Until this morning, all was normal. The male is much more secretive than the female but that is not unusual.

Tonight when I got home, the male had a bubble in his pouch again - he was swimming upside down again. No sign of fry - checked the filter sock... nothing.

So I did another pouch evacuation. This time I got two small bits out of the pouch, along with a couple of "fart bubbles" of air. They look like eggs. I managed to catch one in a pipette and I'm going to try to remember to bring it to work tomorrow where I have a microscope. Looking with a magnifying lens, it isn't perfectly shaped like a round or oval egg, it has an irregular shape.

I'm going to see if I can tell if what I extracted was a partly developed egg (ie from mating 2 weeks ago), or an egg from a possible mating this afternoon.

I'm not sure what the cause of these fertility problems are - he had one small brood of which I was able to retrieve one survivor from the filter sock a month ago, and that individual is doing fine with a friend in her dwarf tank. I was shocked he made it through the first night, let alone a month.

So I know this pair *can* produce, but the last two cycles have resulted in no fry to be found, and this time, matter in the pouch along with air.

Between "due dates" he appears fine - and in fact, he ate 5 minutes after I evacuated the pouch this evening.

Guess we'll see what happens in 2 more weeks.

Jenn

Would the male die if you couldn't evacuate the air bubbles?

Possibly, but not right away.

Having trouble swimming, he may have trouble eating, and become weak that way.

If there's some decaying matter in the pouch, it can case an infection which would kill him.

The bubble itself would not be a direct cause of death, but could cause other complications.

He was fine last night after the fact - we'll see what he does today.

Jenn

I was thinking about setting up a seahorse tank and get a couple breeding pairs, but I'm thinking I might need to get a couple of females first. I'm glad I read this thread. Thx.

You're welcome.

These issues aren't typical, but they aren't all that uncommon either. I've done all kinds of pouch evacuations ... have even been called out to others' homes to either do it or teach someone how, so I'm comfortable doing the procedure but it can be traumatic to both the pony and its keeper at first.

They are social creatures so they do best in the company of their own kind. Females will greet each other in much the same way as a pair will, and you don't have the potential for the kind of complications I'm dealing with (some males never have a problem - but if you mix males and females you WILL have babies).

There have even been reports of females courting one another as if in attempt to mate.

Jenn

Jenn, I am thinking about setting up a seahorse tank. Was thinking of using a 12-14 gal Nano. Is this tank too small? What other specifics do I need to consider? I know tank temp should stay around 74 or below but really haven't read about an thing else. Also, what kind of sea horses would you suggest and are there any tank mates that might benefit them? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Taller is better for seahorses. They *can* be OK in a nano but it's not ideal. 20" or more in height is better, IMO.

Temperature depends on what species you keep - some are temperate 68-72, and most of the ones you find in the trade today are fine at 78.

Jenn

If my seahorsie gets an air bubble I know who to call lol