Sump Design Help and Questions [Archive] - Atlanta Reef Club Forums

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 4:59 AM

hey all,

I hired a local guy to build me a sump so I could maximize the under cabinet space in my new tank while maximizing water volume (we dont have basements).

Anyway, in designing the sump he messed up the original design and layout and while he did a kick butt job building the sump I am not sure Im happy with it.

The catch however is that his mistake may work our for the best because it makes for a larger return section and on my original design the return section may have been too small....I am using a Mag 12 return pump and the tank has a beananimal style overflow with 1.5" drains.

The total volume of the sump is about 90 Gallons. Operating Volume is about 67 gallons.

In the pictures below I detailed the differences between what was supposed to be the original plans and how he actually designed it.

Let me know what you guys think. If I need to make changes or revert to my original design, can they be made without starting over? More so because I want to get this tank started and i need the sump to do that. However, if it works as is I dont mind using the way it is.

One other issue to keep in mind is that I want to use a 36" Tek T5 fixture over my fuge. In the modified plan, part of the fixture would overhang the equipment/skimmer section. Would I have to worry about algae growing in the skimmer? In the original design the light only went over the return section which did not worry me at all.

And last question, how far apart should the bubble trap plates be? And how high up should the middle one be?

Rbredding

10-07-2009, 9:32 AM

if you can be open to changing to a 24" fixture....

put the return at the right end of the sump..
which as best I can tell would make a refugium approximately 16"X24" and the return section 10"X24"...

the height of the bubble trap should be lower or equal to the bottom edge of the outflow weir on the skimmer section... traps are easiest to build if you can get your hand down between them, but 1.5"-2" separation between the pieces of acrylic is typical.. (the center should be the same height off the bottom as the distance between it and the outer panels)

you can run the 24" fixture front to back across the refugium

your current plan looks good though.. (you might need braces for the acrylic, given that you're running it such a long distance and the center panel is only supported at the ends)

SnowManSnow

10-07-2009, 10:53 AM

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 11:17 AM

IMO... if you paid the guy to make a custom sump and he messed it up... that's his problem. Either keep the sump at a greatly reduced price, or have him make it again (this time paying attention to what his customer paid for).

If it were a hand out it would be different, but if you paid for it... well it should be right.

B

yeah I agree....and so did he.....and he offered it to me at a discount.....I was just wanting to make sure that if I agreed, it would work well. Or if my original design was actually better.

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 11:20 AM

if you can be open to changing to a 24" fixture....

put the return at the right end of the sump..
which as best I can tell would make a refugium approximately 16"X24" and the return section 10"X24"...

not sure what youre getting at or how you got 16"?????? sorry.

but yes, I am open to changing to a 24" fixture if need be. I just already have a 36"

Rbredding

10-07-2009, 2:40 PM

not sure what youre getting at or how you got 16"?????? sorry.

but yes, I am open to changing to a 24" fixture if need be. I just already have a 36"

doesn't the largest section measure 24"X26" ? putting a divider that is 24" long at a point that would split the 26" section into 10"X24" for the return and 16"X24" for the refugium... (refugium in the middle, return section at the far right end)

looking at it again, it'd really be better if the bubble trap is between the skimmer section and the refugium.. really not much need for one between the refugium and the return..

roundman

10-07-2009, 2:48 PM

Hackman72

10-07-2009, 3:23 PM

I would think you would want a bubble trap before the return so you will keep bubbles from returning to the Display tank. I am in favor of a larger return area. My first sump had a smaller return area and I fought with micro bubbles all of the time. I made the baffles out of acrylic in a glass tank and they bowed and caused a small water flow into the return area.

The bubble trap doesn't need to be after the fuge because it should be large enough to slow the water down and let the bubbles gas out over the top of it for whatever made it through the trap. If micro bubbles are the problem after that, raise the pump about an 1 1/2 and put an elbow turned down and it will pull water from the bottom of the return.

Hackman72

10-07-2009, 3:28 PM

I'm not seeing where the bubble trap is being accounted for in the dimensions. How many inches between the baffles? If they're to close and the water moves to fast, micro bubbles will get caught in the flow and the bubble trap will be pointless.

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 4:11 PM

doesn't the largest section measure 24"X26" ? putting a divider that is 24" long at a point that would split the 26" section into 10"X24" for the return and 16"X24" for the refugium... (refugium in the middle, return section at the far right end)

looking at it again, it'd really be better if the bubble trap is between the skimmer section and the refugium.. really not much need for one between the refugium and the return..

The largest section in both designs is 26 x 14. Ive always seen the bubble trap right before the return only because I thought bubbles can develop in the fuge???

Hackman, youre right I did not acct for the bubble trap in those dimensions. As for how many inches between the baffles, thats what I wanted to know. :) How do you figure that out?

This sounded good to me from Rbredding:
"but 1.5"-2" separation between the pieces of acrylic is typical.. (the center should be the same height off the bottom as the distance between it and the outer panels)"

I do have an elbow on the return pump but are you suggesting that because of the size of the fuge a bubble trap is not necessary?

Essentially, what I need to know is if this thing will work the way it is. If it does I keep it and end up getting a pretty good working sump for cheaper (since he messed up). Or I have him rebuild it and pay the same price.

Hackman72

10-07-2009, 4:46 PM

The largest section in both designs is 26 x 14. Ive always seen the bubble trap right before the return only because I thought bubbles can develop in the fuge???

Hackman, youre right I did not acct for the bubble trap in those dimensions. As for how many inches between the baffles, thats what I wanted to know. :) How do you figure that out?

This sounded good to me from Rbredding:
"but 1.5"-2" separation between the pieces of acrylic is typical.. (the center should be the same height off the bottom as the distance between it and the outer panels)"

I do have an elbow on the return pump but are you suggesting that because of the size of the fuge a bubble trap is not necessary?

Essentially, what I need to know is if this thing will work the way it is. If it does I keep it and end up getting a pretty good working sump for cheaper (since he messed up). Or I have him rebuild it and pay the same price.

IMO, I'd take the cheaper one as it will do what you're basically wanting it to do. I'm not sure of your equipment intentions as that chamber is now much smaller but most pieces have HOT capabilities. That would be the deciding factor if you already have in-sump equipment.

I'm mobile right now and can't see the pic but I don't remember seeing the bubble trap installed. If not, I'd ask for the acrylic to do it but use it to make a brace for the legs on the 36" light over the 24" fuge until you can get a smaller light. With that said, bubble traps, to me, are dependent on the sump design. My sump doesn't have one and with the elbow I don't have micro bubbles and the fuge is right before the return. My fuge is only 12" by 12". If you do want a bubble trap, Ron is right on the dimensions for it.

Most of the decision should be based however on will the wrong design still fit the extra equipment and serve the general purpose for which you intended.

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 5:03 PM

hmmm...good point i didnt think about skimmer footprints.

Currently I have an Oct Ex-200: Footprint: 11.5 inches X 13.5 inches. That doesn't seem to fit in either design. uhhh....shoot (for lack of a better word).

I wanted to upgrade eventually to the Super Reef Octopus 5000sss which has a 10x12.5 footprint and I think meets my needs (maybe eventually is now, uhhh double shoot!)

Hackman72

10-07-2009, 5:11 PM

Hackman72

10-07-2009, 5:20 PM

FWIW, here's what I did with my 30" x12" sump. Intake goes into fuge then over spillway into useless 3" chamber where I put some LR rubble. It then goes to the return where the skimmer hangs on a baffle pulling out of the fuge and returning ( with the help of some 1" pvc) back to the intake. I know that's not optimum to return skimed water back towards the skimmer but I made do with the size restrictions. Sit down and give it a good once over and I'm sure you'll figure out a way to make it work.

grouper therapy

10-07-2009, 5:26 PM

What is the purpose of the intake side?

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 5:28 PM

can either be set up for HOT?

not sure, but I am kind of against HOT or Ext skimmers....i see too many skimmer overflows.

Sit down and give it a good once over and I'm sure you'll figure out a way to make it work.

uhh....youre giving me way too much credit..lol....ask lee - This is what I keep you guys around for. ;)

I see what you are talking about with your design but the skimmer is a HOT right?

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 5:29 PM

What is the purpose of the intake side?

where the water comes from the tank.......3 1.5in PVC's

Hackman72

10-07-2009, 5:36 PM

I see what you are talking about with your design but the skimmer is a HOT right?

I've got a turboflotor SL AND i love it. It works either in or out. I'm not a big fan of HOT either. I was just limited on space but I do like having options with it.

grouper therapy

10-07-2009, 5:40 PM

where the water comes from the tank.......3 1.5in PVC's
Then the divider between the intake and the skimmer could be removed correct?

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 5:55 PM

I've got a turboflotor SL AND i love it. It works either in or out. I'm not a big fan of HOT either. I was just limited on space but I do like having options with it.

yeah they certainly save space when its tight.

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 5:56 PM

Then the divider between the intake and the skimmer could be removed correct?

I suppose so. Unless i use filter socks which I have no intention of using. and even then, they can just hang.

that would definitely open up more space for a skimmer but still not enough for my current one.

What I was thinking was cutting out the the wall between the skimmer/equip section and bringing forward into the fuge. Would make the fuge section smaller but would give me more space to upgrade if necessary.

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 6:04 PM

basically have him do this.....check out th white lines....hopefully that makes sense.

grouper therapy

10-07-2009, 6:11 PM

That will work my refugium is only 20 gallons on a 300 gallon system. Imo just big enough to grow some cheato.

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 6:21 PM

as for the light, will it be an issue to hang my 36" fixture over the fuge/skimmer section? or is it better to get a smaller light that just hangs over the fug section alone?

Hackman72

10-07-2009, 6:28 PM

grouper therapy

10-07-2009, 6:30 PM

I run a power compact twist over mine from HD.

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 6:39 PM

The light shouldn't be a problem for the skimmer. If you're worried about it.Hang it farther off the other end away from the skimmer. Mine gets plenty of light andI've never had algae issues with it.

If you modify the design and go back,is he going to charge extra now sinceyou changed it? Tell him that the only way it would work is to modify it per your drawing and that you'll take it at the discounted price since he messed up. We are talking Miami, right?

LOL....that was the plan.....and no he wont be charging me extra....if he does i get my deposit back and walk away.....but actually, he is a good guy....not too worried.

I run a power compact twist over mine from HD.

yeah but I like to sometimes put frags in my fuge before placing them in the main tank.....takes me a while to figure out where they go and I have a tek t5 that will keep them ok for a while.

grouper therapy

10-07-2009, 6:46 PM

LOL....that was the plan.....and no he wont be charging me extra....if he does i get my deposit back and walk away.....but actually, he is a good guy....not too worried.

yeah but I like to sometimes put frags in my fuge before placing them in the main tank.....takes me a while to figure out where they go and I have a tek t5 that will keep them ok for a while.

Great idea!

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 11:02 PM

ha...thanks......Im wanting to make a little eggcrate shelf to hang in the fuge and let them develop in there.

Hackman72

10-07-2009, 11:12 PM

ha...thanks......Im wanting to make a little eggcrate shelf to hang in the fuge and let them develop in there.

I did the same thing. It works very well...steady flow and good lighting. Only problem was my fuge is to small and I had more frags than space for them.

Jgoal55

10-07-2009, 11:16 PM

yeah thats why we all upgrade at one time or another ...lol

So, is the final design layout to do the extended skimmer section like i posted above? do you agree that that would work well?

Jgoal55

10-09-2009, 1:32 AM

bump...for any final objections???? going to talk to the builder tomorrow.

Jgoal55

10-11-2009, 2:07 AM

Ok, so I went to talk to the builder today to suggest some alternate plans. I suggested the moving/cutting of the walls to rearrange the sump like I described above and he pretty much told me he'd rather build a new one b/c it would look so bad.

Basically the issue is that he says he cant cut right along the edge of the dividers because the router doesn't let him get too close to where the divider meets the outer wall of the tank so there would be like 1.5 - 2in "flaps" just sitting there. I agree. I think it would look messy.

Anyway, as it turns out, I have to decide by tuesday whether I want to keep this as is (for less money) or whether I want him to start over and build it like I specified the first time.

Pros of keeping as is:
Cheaper
Get my tank up and running faster
Better Return section Volume

Cons of keeping as is:
Very Limited w/ (in sump) Skimmer choices
(this only worries me because if I ever want to upgrade skimmers I dont have a lot of options. That said, my current skimmer fits and the one I was considering upgrading too also fits. But, if I end up not happy with it, then what).

[B]Anyway, I think what it comes down to is this: My new tank is 160 gallons plus a 60 gallon operating level sump so were looking at a 220g system....

How many good in-sump skimmers (within a reasonable budget around $600 or less) can I fit in 13.25W x 13L? If the answer is quite a few, then I may just keep it knowing that I have options. If the answer is 3 or less, I think Ill have him rebuild.

Now to throw a small wrench in the whole plan. Even though I'm pretty against the idea, I know there are some great external skimmers. If I were to consider them (even though they take away from my under cabinet space), are my options pretty much endless at that point?

Also, attached is a picture with the exact measurements (inner dimensions and still not accounting for the bubble trap).

Skriz

10-11-2009, 10:04 AM

Jorge,

The more powerful skimmers are all external. It's time for you to grow up and play with the big kids :)

Your builder is right; trying to modify the sump will be a disaster. It'll look like that photo of Brandon in a bunny suit..only worse (if that's possible).

Look, you're spending good money on your entire system and it is something that you'll have to live with for quite some time. Don't let a little discount alter your plans. In the grand scheme of things, a few dollars now is nothing compared to the headache and aggravation with making do. If it were me, go with the plan you think will work the best, regardless of cost.

Jgoal55

10-11-2009, 12:37 PM

well I definitely agree with you but I guess what Im getting at is that if I do end up switching to external skimmers then the current design has no problems at all right? therefore, i get the best of both worlds and I get my tank up and running quicker.

that said, my concern is more of going without an external skimmer. again, im extremely limited. and yes the it may be time to play with the big boys but I have seen soooo many of you big boys flood your tank areas with ext skimmers it scares me. And with my history of floods it's all too real a possibility (ill forget to turn it off when feeding something, Ill adjust it incorrectly, ill add a supplement, and boom - skimmer overflow)

So lets just put it this way. I am definitely considering the external option. But I do prefer the internal. I think with this size tank an internal can still work well. Again, the issue is can I find a good one to fit. If not, new sump it is. (and more than a money thing, its a time thing. Im dying to get water in this thing already)

Now about brandon, pictures of him without any types of animal suits are ugly. I cant imagine a bunny suit and I definitely cant imagine worse than that!!! I will say this, does brandon even need to dress up for halloween?

Hackman72

10-11-2009, 1:20 PM

Don't forget that some skimmers come with a drain plug that you attach a line and run it over to something like a 2-liter bottle so the collection cup doesn't ever really fill up. I've never done it but I imagine you could DIY something like that also. Nice way to avoid a flood if that's of major concern to you.

Skriz

10-11-2009, 1:37 PM

Jgoal55

10-12-2009, 3:57 AM

lol...good point on brandon...

Waste collector? shut off skimmer? sounds like a must have! Im liking the idea. - not limited with external, I get my sump faster, its cheaper, and its a better skimmer. Lets hear the recommendations Raj.....

Hackman....ive seen those drains too but usually when Ive had my skimmer overflow its does it so much it would fill up most containers you attach....LOL

LilRobb

10-12-2009, 4:32 AM

But a full waste container would shut the skimmer down and thus stop the overflowing...

Rbredding

10-12-2009, 9:20 AM

The largest section in both designs is 26 x 14. i meant the current (no divider) section, not the two options that you've shown pictures of..

Ive always seen the bubble trap right before the return only because I thought bubbles can develop in the fuge??? the bubble trap is only needed where water flow is so fast that the micro and larger bubbles don't have a chance to rise to the surface, the bubble trap holds them in the first section so that "bubble-less" water will continue..
with a Refugium, the flow should be slower, so that the bubbles have the chance they need to rise.

Hackman, youre right I did not acct for the bubble trap in those dimensions. As for how many inches between the baffles, thats what I wanted to know. :) How do you figure that out?

This sounded good to me from Rbredding:
"but 1.5"-2" separation between the pieces of acrylic is typical.. (the center should be the same height off the bottom as the distance between it and the outer panels)"Essentially, what I need to know is if this thing will work the way it is. If it does I keep it and end up getting a pretty good working sump for cheaper (since he messed up). Or I have him rebuild it and pay the same price.
I think that you can DEFINITELY work with the sections that he's put in place, but you'll need to add a bubble trap and another divider to really make it work for you...

I would add the bubble trap turned 90* from how you've shown it in your white line drawings.. run the bubble trap from the bottom left corner to the top right corner of the drawing... (see the image below)

with this design, you can actually raise the level of the water in the refugium to whatever height you want to use, (the water flowing into the bubble trap will enter at the cutout in that section, but will leave the bubble trap at the elevation of the last baffle - that touches the divider)

this will raise the water level in the intake section AND the skimmer section, but that shouldn't be a bad thing.. fill the intake section with "clean" live rock and your skimmer will fit into the skimmer section (you can pipe the output of your skimmer to put the skimmed water directly into the refugium or into the return section (nothing says that your skimmer has to empty into the same section it pulls from... it should be "bubble-less" water, so there's really no issue with piping it directly into the return section)

Skriz

10-12-2009, 10:38 AM

Jgoal55

10-12-2009, 12:56 PM

i meant the current (no divider) section, not the two options that you've shown pictures of..

the bubble trap is only needed where water flow is so fast that the micro and larger bubbles don't have a chance to rise to the surface, the bubble trap holds them in the first section so that "bubble-less" water will continue..
with a Refugium, the flow should be slower, so that the bubbles have the chance they need to rise.

I think that you can DEFINITELY work with the sections that he's put in place, but you'll need to add a bubble trap and another divider to really make it work for you...

I would add the bubble trap turned 90* from how you've shown it in your white line drawings.. run the bubble trap from the bottom left corner to the top right corner of the drawing... (see the image below)

with this design, you can actually raise the level of the water in the refugium to whatever height you want to use, (the water flowing into the bubble trap will enter at the cutout in that section, but will leave the bubble trap at the elevation of the last baffle - that touches the divider)

this will raise the water level in the intake section AND the skimmer section, but that shouldn't be a bad thing.. fill the intake section with "clean" live rock and your skimmer will fit into the skimmer section (you can pipe the output of your skimmer to put the skimmed water directly into the refugium or into the return section (nothing says that your skimmer has to empty into the same section it pulls from... it should be "bubble-less" water, so there's really no issue with piping it directly into the return section)

Thanks so much for taking the time to do that. I cleared up your drawing and re-did it with your suggestions. Hoping I got it right.

The only thing is Im not sure how this really helps the skimmer situation as the main issue is the size of the skimmer compartment???? It does however make the fuge bigger which is always nice and it also fixes the light issue since I could easily use a 24in light. 2 out of 3 fixed not bad. I could use this design with an external skimmer.

Jgoal55

10-12-2009, 1:01 PM

Lmk the specs on the tank and what you're planning on keeping and I'll work up something nice for you :)

160g (60L x 28W x22H) - Sump (36L x 24W x 24T) = so id say about 220 total system volume. 80% SPS/LPS, 15% zoanthids, 5% some softies my wife likes.

Fish. not sure yet but thinking 3-4 md/lg tangs and about 10-15 smaller reef fish (gobies, wrasses, basslets, etc) and I wanted a school of anthias as well.

Jgoal55

11-06-2009, 2:51 AM

hey guys....

just an update for you since you all helped me out with the ideas. I finally decided a while ago to keep the sump as is. I found a few internal and obviously a bunch of external skimmers that will fit the space just fine and can more than handle my tank.

And with a bit of luck I was able to make my current skimmer fit just fine so everything worked out for the best. And I got a really nice sump for an awesome price!!

Of course, because not everything can go just right when I finally got the sump under the tank I realized that I made it just a bit to tall. Even though my stand is actually 44" tall, the opening for where the doors are is much shorter and I forgot to take that into acct. So I had almost no room to work above the sump.

I took it back to the builder and we worked out a quick mod where I got an extra 3 inches of space.....the pics explain.

Thanks for all the suggestions and help.

Final Layout:
http://i552.photobucket.com/albums/jj347/Jgoal55/IMG_0482JPG.jpg

In stand (note the "Duh!"):
http://i552.photobucket.com/albums/jj347/Jgoal55/IMG_0488JPG.jpg

Mod Idea:
http://i552.photobucket.com/albums/jj347/Jgoal55/IMG_0482JPG-1-1.jpg

Mod Result:
http://i552.photobucket.com/albums/jj347/Jgoal55/IMG_0490.jpg

More space!
http://i552.photobucket.com/albums/jj347/Jgoal55/IMG_0491JPG.jpg

blu_devl_06

11-06-2009, 3:01 AM

nice

Smoothie

11-06-2009, 3:04 AM

Glad he took a step back and thought simple. Looks great. Can't wait to see some water in it and some funk in the fuge

Jgoal55

11-06-2009, 3:09 AM

yeah I had asked him to cut the whole perimeter and then he was like "Uhhh....no"

He said that would have messed with the bracing so he didn't want to do that. I actually like the way it looks and although this is a far fetched benefit, if you think about it, its kind of cool because if there is ever an overflow, Id rather have water spilling out one side then out of 4. If you catch it in time that's a few less towels you have to put down. :)

Also, I just put together this little skimmer stand. My first acrylic gluing job and I dont think it came out too shabby. I used one of my insulin syringes to apply the Weld On.

Even though the pics make it look that way, thats not a solid box. its open on two sides but im still thinking of drilling more holes for fun.

Skimmer Stand:
http://i552.photobucket.com/albums/jj347/Jgoal55/IMG_0495.jpg

Skimmer on Stand:
http://i552.photobucket.com/albums/jj347/Jgoal55/IMG_0497.jpg