I know it is expensive to get into (without making your own system)

but has anyone used them to replace MH lamps? (or is it better to run them WITH a fluorescent VHO?)



I'm able at this point to go a couple different directions and I'd rather not have to add the chiller to my system if I don't have to.. (and I know I won't, initially)

(plus if I can keep the MH's out of the setup, and the chiller out of the setup, my power consumption drops like a rock and the whole system gets quieter)

I looked at the Aqua Illumination website, but couldn't find anything on pricing....

thousands... and existing LED lights do not quite match halides for par in any case.

I believe the 4' solaris was around 3grand. and it pulled almost 4-500watts anyway.

LEDs are not a magic bullet, they are about 10% magic, and 90% snake oil. which is too bad, because the 10% is pretty cool, but it could be cooler.

look into T5s if your concerned with heat, they are a little better about it

Its funny everyone says metal halide and chiller like its a coupled thing. The last 3 tanks I have put up have had 250 and 400w halides on them and non needed a chiller. Buy a quality reflector which can be placed up higher, vent your canopy very well or have a fan blowing between the bulb and water and you would be amazed at the amount of heat you can dissipate. For the record, I had the same heat issues with my T-5s as my halides on my 90 and used the same ventilation for both setups.

I to have to run a chiller on my t5 setup although i am overdriving

I to have to run a chiller on my t5 setup although i am overdriving

+1, because if you dont overdrive, you arent competing with halides in PAR!

chiller is much about your situation then your lights. the more open your setup, less chance of needing a chiller. even LEDs could need a chiller though, pumps can outdo lights for heat into the water any day.

in any event, there is no substitute for a chiller. a chiller will let you hold a line all day and night. anything else tends to be more of a wave, cool it down over night then take a running start into the day, and repeat. sometimes the wave is manageble, sometimes it isnt :( I was good on my 75g, my new tank I had to cool it down to 77degrees at night, then run up to 83 during the day... that was too much of a swing, if I didnt cool with fans at night, then it would run up even higher during the day.

chiller was the solution.

but its not always required. 75g with 500w of halides had no such issues.

set up fans in loop with your main daylights and you have no isssues at all...especially if you go with vortech powerheads (no heat cause motor is on the outside of the tank) Then if you are in dire need of a calcium/alk maintainer you add a kalk reactor in loop with ato and since you are funning fans over your lights you have lots of evap which will make the kalk reactor dose more hintz you get alk cal supplemented as well as you aint buying a 800 dollar chiller and you have some really sweet powerheads

powerheads USSUALLY arent the problem, they are all painfully efficient. return pumps, utility pumps, skimmers, ect, they can add up the wattage pretty good.

+1, because if you dont overdrive, you arent competing with halides in PAR!

This is simply not true. Most of the high end t5's actually do not overdrive and put out more par than any overdriven t5 setup. Ati, aquactinics etc actually run the bulbs at spec. and put out considerably more par than competing overdriven fixtures. Ati units are cream of the crop and put out significant par and the key to their operation is a well designed ventilation system. T5 bulbs lose ALOT of efficiency when there allowed to run too hot. That's where ati has made a killing by keeping these bulbs cool. overdriven bulbs actually run hotter and that's why ati and high end distributors have choosen to use the stock ballasts on them to keep them cooler and keep them from losing output in par, shorter bulb life, etc

+1, because if you dont overdrive, you arent competing with halides in PAR!

This is simply not true. Most of the high end t5's actually do not overdrive and put out more par than any overdriven t5 setup. Ati, aquactinics etc actually run the bulbs at spec. and put out considerably more par than competing overdriven fixtures. Ati units are cream of the crop and put out significant par and the key to their operation is a well designed ventilation system. T5 bulbs lose ALOT of efficiency when there allowed to run too hot. That's where ati has made a killing by keeping these bulbs cool. overdriven bulbs actually run hotter and that's why ati and high end distributors have choosen to use the stock ballasts on them to keep them cooler and keep them from losing output in par, shorter bulb life, etc

This is simply not true. Most of the high end t5's actually do not overdrive and put out more par than any overdriven t5 setup. Ati, aquactinics etc actually run the bulbs at spec. and put out considerably more par than competing overdriven fixtures. Ati units are cream of the crop and put out significant par and the key to their operation is a well designed ventilation system. T5 bulbs lose ALOT of efficiency when there allowed to run too hot. That's where ati has made a killing by keeping these bulbs cool. overdriven bulbs actually run hotter and that's why ati and high end distributors have choosen to use the stock ballasts on them to keep them cooler and keep them from losing output in par, shorter bulb life, etc
Ok...my bulbs have 4 38 CFM fans on them the second they come on so my bulbs run cool...Not to mention I am also running tek 2 reflectors...I can't find any reviews on the fixture (hintz the price....if he is worried about a chiller and cost why buy an ATI) I am using 4 bulbs and getting great growth and i also have sps and clams in the sand bed that are doing fine. They put out more par b/c they are use 8 bulbs...Compare 8 bulb setup (ati) with two icecap 660's and 8 bulbs that are being cooled and I can imagine there would be a completly diff story (also needing tek2 reflectors) and I am not speaking of fixtures i am speaking retro

I've got the chiller, I just don't want my electric bill to go up $50/month because of the MH's and Chiller running all the time..

as far as the reflectors, I'm kinda screwed, I've got 18" width to work with and I've got 4 VHO actinics and 2 250w mh's to fit in there.. at least that's what came with the system.. I dont HAVE to put it all back, but I don't have the experience in the hobby in order to say that I only need 2 VHO lamps instead of 4 (since I've got the 250w mh lamps..)

More full spectrum light the better, right??

Can I get away with:
[250w MH] + [250w MH] + [110w Actinic] + [110w Actinic]
for the lighting?

or do I need the full setup as I got it:
[250w MH] + [250w MH] + [110w Actinic] + [110w Actinic]+ [110w Actinic] + [110w Actinic]

At this point I know that I will want a full mix of SPS, LPS, and softies so what target will I have to reach for? 500w? 720w? 940w?

the tank is shallow (20") and as I stated above, I've only got 18" front to back (best case senerio)....


right now, front to back the setup is going to be:
[110w Actinic]
[110w Actinic]
[250w MH] + [250w MH]
[110w Actinic]
[110w Actinic]

Jeep, I was never suggesting that you can't have a great overdriven setup with alot of par, only that there are many that aren't overdriven that compete or outcompete overdriven fixtures. Ati also has 4 bulb fixtures as well. I wasn't suggesting he should buy one, just using an example of a fixture that puts out par comparable to metal halides wout being overdriven. There's a reason ati fixtures put out double the par of comparable tek setups and it's bc they are cooler and I'm not talking about a lil warm I'm talking cool. Believe me overdriving adds heat to the bulb even w fans, I'm not saying u can't do it that way. Only that it doesn't need to be overdriven to put out par. I don't believe there's a comparable t5 unit out there (4 bulb to 4 bulb, and spec wattage of bulbs) that will compete w an ati in par.

This is simply not true. Most of the high end t5's actually do not overdrive and put out more par than any overdriven t5 setup. Ati, aquactinics etc actually run the bulbs at spec. and put out considerably more par than competing overdriven fixtures. Ati units are cream of the crop and put out significant par and the key to their operation is a well designed ventilation system. T5 bulbs lose ALOT of efficiency when there allowed to run too hot. That's where ati has made a killing by keeping these bulbs cool. overdriven bulbs actually run hotter and that's why ati and high end distributors have choosen to use the stock ballasts on them to keep them cooler and keep them from losing output in par, shorter bulb life, etc

Ive tested the par of the same bulbs of multiple brands when they are and are not overdriven and every one put out more par than when "driven to spec". Now I didnt feel like explaining my whole setup, however the bulbs were actively cooled and were all cool to the touch even across the whole bulb. This wasnt meant to be a DIY guide to a T-5 setup......

The ati setups that are not overdriven and require more bulbs to achieve the same par. Ive seen and played with alot of T-5 setups from fixtures to retros. The ATI are very nice and slick looking. But you cant tell me that overdriving a bulb does not put out more par. If you want to jam 8 T-5s under there when 6 would do the same overdriven then your just running more bulbs and replacing more bulbs. Either way if you dont do your research then you wont get the best results.

you dont NEED the actinic at all... it adds very little par to the tank, it is about appearances, making corals pop and sometimes color up differently than without.

Im curious what kind of reflectors your halides have if your fitting all that in 18"... I barely fit the same exact lighting in 24" with reefoptix elite reflectors.

Run those same bulbs for a month and the heat will effect their efficiency in the long term, that's the thinking behind thistheory. I've spoken at lengths w some zeoheads and t5 gurus about this but basically there reasoning is by overdriving the bulbs there will be many peaks and valleys in terms of par with overdriven versus spec. With best par right after turning on and decreasing as they burn for a cpl hours and even more after a cpl months

With two 250's and only 20inches deep you should have a problem at all, what color are you looking for in you tank b/c you could run 20k's in both mh and not need the extra heat by vho's, run the mh's about 10-12 inches above water put one medium sized fan under each halide and presto you shouldn't need a chiller...you still get great par as well as try to keep the number of pumps to a minimum...ie vortechs b/c the motors aren't in the water although they are very low wattage it does condribute to heat...now you do know that Chris at Einsteins has 2 8bulb nove extreme setups for 300 bucks each (only need one) and that is plenty of lighting for anything without overdriving and i don't think you would have an heat issue b/c the bulbs are covered with glass pannel...Plus your bulb combination is endless with t5's

Run those same bulbs for a month and the heat will effect their efficiency in the long term, that's the thinking behind thistheory. I've spoken at lengths w some zeoheads and t5 gurus about this but basically there reasoning is by overdriving the bulbs there will be many peaks and valleys in terms of par with overdriven versus spec. With best par right after turning on and decreasing as they burn for a cpl hours and even more after a cpl months
Icecap even states that the bulbs suffer very little loss in power or color being overdriven until 12months actinc and 18months daylight...If you properly cool it...I am not going to continue crashing his thread...if you would like we could start another thread for the sole purpose of this or we could just agree to disagree but i am sorry for getting off course with our bickering

I'd love to see a comparison bw ati's 80 watters and an overdriven 80 watt setup with the same bulb count. I may be getting one here shortly if U'd like to do some tests I'd be very interested. If they put out more par than one of those guys I'll have a cpl frags for u! Btw not trying to be argumentative just good hearted discussion. Btw look at totm July 2008 I'd post a link but I'm on the iPhone.

Sorry for the highjack as well.

you dont NEED the actinic at all... it adds very little par to the tank, it is about appearances, making corals pop and sometimes color up differently than without.

Im curious what kind of reflectors your halides have if your fitting all that in 18"... I barely fit the same exact lighting in 24" with reefoptix elite reflectors.
Reef Optix Elite is what came on the system.. only they are way more vertical than the stock picture (looks to be 60* or so)...

That was my whole point before with regard to my reflectors, and that's why I'm considering making the entire underside of the canopy a reflector, because the ReefOptix actually block the light coming from the VHO's...

my plan is to silverize the entire canopy (top 8" anyway), and use 14K or 20K for the MH's and 2 daylight and 2 actinic in the VHO's all in all I'll be running approximately 940w over the canopy..

bad idea. MH need to be properly reflected, just coating a canopy in silver paint or whatever, half your light side to side will just be bounced back and forth and deflect off the surface of the water, as well as heat up your flourescent bulbs, and so on. you definitely want reflectors.

Id either

1. drop down to 2 VHOs if they will fit with the reflectors without being blocked.

2. replace the VHOs with 4 18" bulbs running front to back between the MH reflectors.

3. sell the VHOs and just get some 20k MH bulbs.

my thoughts on it anyway, of what I would do if I were you. the last option definitely being the easiest, least heat, cheapest, lowest wattage. its the way id go if option 1 doesnt fit. drawback is that you will lose par, probably wont miss it though... 250w MHs should be able to adequately light 20" deep, even with 20k bulbs.

bad idea. MH need to be properly reflected, just coating a canopy in silver paint or whatever, half your light side to side will just be bounced back and forth and deflect off the surface of the water, as well as heat up your flourescent bulbs, and so on. you definitely want reflectors.

Id either

1. drop down to 2 VHOs if they will fit with the reflectors without being blocked.

2. replace the VHOs with 4 18" bulbs running front to back between the MH reflectors.

3. sell the VHOs and just get some 20k MH bulbs.

my thoughts on it anyway, of what I would do if I were you. the last option definitely being the easiest, least heat, cheapest, lowest wattage. its the way id go if option 1 doesnt fit. drawback is that you will lose par, probably wont miss it though... 250w MHs should be able to adequately light 20" deep, even with 20k bulbs.
+1 Exactly...If you go 20k with both MH's you wont need to suppliment actinic and you will be at 500w vs 900+....but do get reflectors or you might as well be running 70w halides over your tank and lose more light...you go 20k with some decent yet small reflectors you should be perfoect with a couple of fans

DAYUM!!!!

Just thought about it... I can probably mount the MH's up high and drop the VHO's down to be level with the reflectors, wonder if I could make them fit then?!?!

I could just put a couple stand off's at the far ends to mount the VHO's to and make sure that they clear the MH reflectors...

so essentially the MH's would be mounted to the top of the canopy and the VHO's would be dropped about 3" down from the top of the canopy... the new canopy will be around 10-11" tall which will put the MH's at LEAST 7" above the water level

I like this whole community brain storming effect..

could, raising the MHs would decrease your par, but would also help with heat transfer to the light.

right now as the canopy was originally designed, the mh LAMPS were less than 3" off the top of the water... I don't know how they didn't blow by getting splashed..

the new canopy WILL raise them from the 3" but will move them closer to the optimal 6"-8" (that I read about EVERYWHERE)


I'm pretty sure I'll end up running 20K MH lamps...

If you run 20k's there really is no need for the vho's that is just a waste of elec....like i was saying sting around 500w vs 900+ seems better to me plus i think you will like the color of the corals with 20k's....I have about 500w on my 75 but i am just using t5's

well.......

few things, 1, 6-7" will be better for heat, and also access to your tank, 3"... thatd be a pain in the butt.

as for actinics, 20k really is different, and somewhat better than actinics IME. gives the tank the blue/purple hue, rather than JUST making the corals phosphores... very cool.

HOWEVER, I LOVE actinic only too... and its nice for dawn dusk to transition the tank on. so Id probably opt for keeping 2 of the actinic bulbs, and running them before and after the MHs, but maybe not at the same time(for heat and electricity reasons). But I would keep them in the mix, just because they are so cool looking by themselves.

well.......

few things, 1, 6-7" will be better for heat, and also access to your tank, 3"... thatd be a pain in the butt.

as for actinics, 20k really is different, and somewhat better than actinics IME. gives the tank the blue/purple hue, rather than JUST making the corals phosphores... very cool.

HOWEVER, I LOVE actinic only too... and its nice for dawn dusk to transition the tank on. so Id probably opt for keeping 2 of the actinic bulbs, and running them before and after the MHs, but maybe not at the same time(for heat and electricity reasons). But I would keep them in the mix, just because they are so cool looking by themselves.
You know ares...we need the rep points back b/c i think i would have hit a limit with you just today...+1...I really didn't think about the dawn and dusk...Sorry about that I lost my train of thought for a bit after the ati vs overdriven dispute (sorry)...Ares is right...U do need dawn and dusk lights so yes i would keep 2 of the vho's for dawn and dusk at the really cool viewing in the mornings and at night as well...That is why they call you ares:)...or why you call yourself ares

what about running a cycle where the 2 actinics are on for 14 hours and the MH's come on 2 hours after the VHO's start and go off 2 hours before the VHO's turn off....

with moon light LED's running during the other 10 hours...

Long light cycle but mine is also long so I think you would be ok...I would have the lights on at night and off in the day time that way in the winter you can counter the cold at night and the summer u can counter the heat by running them at night as well...just my 2cent though

what about running a cycle where the 2 actinics are on for 14 hours and the MH's come on 2 hours after the VHO's start and go off 2 hours before the VHO's turn off....

with moon light LED's running during the other 10 hours...

its what I do with my lighting(except I only run my moonlights till 1AM, give the corals some total darkness, since Im asleep anyway, no clue if they need that darkness, but cant hurt I figure). nothing wrong with it. but if the heat becomes a problem, you can cut off the VHO for the 10 hours that the MHs are on, probably wont be able to see a difference honestly. but the corals might.

if you have an aqua controller or reef keeper, Id probably suggest a code that cuts off the VHO if the tank gets over 81degrees or something. then cut off the MHs at 83.

WOW, I,m new to the T5 thing could you please see my post on the Reef Discussion it is listed as T5 TEK 54W X 8 Bulb combo ideas, looking for bulb ideas for a 75 Gal, after reading this I may have gone overboard on the 8 bulb setup, anyway would like your input if you don't mind. Thanks for the help

Mark

really depends on what ur plans are for growing...