View Full Version : Spray Bar


c0mputernick
01-25-2007, 9:48 PM
Im going to be adding about 90lbs of live rock to my 90 gallon tank over the weekend and have been researching alot of do it yourself projects and came across a spray bar project, which got me thinking....do i need one?
here is the project:
http://compudoc97.com/SWNDIY9.html

Do i need something behind the live rock making current? Ive heard of putting a powerhead behind the rock on either side to make current behind the rocks, but im assuming there will be dead spots. what is the hazard of not having alot of flow behind the rocks?
do i just bury a pump connected to this spray bar or does it come from the sump somehow?

I really want to get the best setup i can from the start and not waste alot of money in the learning process.

Thanks for any advice you can give.

Nick

Also, what are some good ways to increase flow in a tank without powerheads? I have a large sump, with a 1000gph pump with a 1200gph (rated) overflow box. so i cant really add another pump in the sump to pump up more water than my overflow can handle, i currently have 5 power heads for flow and i think thats a little much and really would like something that does take up as much space and not add to the heat of the tank as much.
I could add some pvc piping like for the spray bar behind the rock, and possibly from the return, but where would the extra flow come from? would it hurt to spilt the line coming from the return pump into 2 return lines? would that have any affect on its performance?
for example in this setup,
http://compudoc97.com/SWNDIY9b.html
i see 3 return spouts, would this all be coming from one sump pump? would it be good to have 2, one in each corner pointing towards one another diagonal across the tank?
ive been googling alot and seeing alot of differnent setups so im kinda confused as to what i should go with and what works the best.
thanks for the help.
Sorry for all the questions, im very new to this.

Vettesarebest
01-25-2007, 9:53 PM
I have Two Maxi Jets behind my rock's and they keep it really clean back there. I don't know if there is a down side to this but it definatly helps IMO. As far as bury'ing a powerhead. I wouldn't do this. If you get sand in the impeller it will likely mess it up. Also make the powerhead or what ever you decide to do easily accesible for regualr maintinence.

c0mputernick
01-25-2007, 9:58 PM
I have Two Maxi Jets behind my rock's and they keep it really clean back there. I don't know if there is a down side to this but it definatly helps IMO. As far as bury'ing a powerhead. I wouldn't do this. If you get sand in the impeller it will likely mess it up. Also make the powerhead or what ever you decide to do easily accesible for regualr maintinence.

Do you have one on either side blowing toward the center? thats kinda what i have now, i put the sponges on them to keep stuff out of the impeller. i was hoping there was a maintinence free way to go about this, i dont really want be moving the rocks alot to get to the powerheads for cleaning, but still get the circulation.

thanks for the reply.

Vettesarebest
01-25-2007, 10:00 PM
I don't have to move my rocks at all to clean my PH's. Yes I have two on each side behind the rock's blowing toward eachother. I also have two in front of the rock blowing toward eachother. Also, Welcome to the ARC!!!!!!!!!

Xyzpdq0121
01-26-2007, 12:21 AM
I have built a system kind of like this: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbh2oret.htm and it is awsome, I have no powerheads in my tank for anything to get sucked up in or that distract from the view of the tank. You can make a down shat to go behind your rock and add flow that way. Just know two things, You are going to loose some pressure on that 1000gph pump if it is coming from your sump and you want about 250gph (or more) out each nozzle into the tank. Your pump on a normal setup will pump about 750-800gph due to head loss. So you could make a set up with 3 nozzles. I would design it with more so you can upgrade your pump later. I love the closed loop circulation though. Heck you could even design it with a spray bar but I would make this the last output in the circle.

brad
01-26-2007, 12:35 AM
these are some pretty good ideas.. i've been looking for something to get those big powerheads out of there...

Xyzpdq0121
01-26-2007, 1:52 PM
I can honestly say I will never own a powerhead again. And my closed loop was cheap other then the pump you need to drive the dang thing.

c0mputernick
02-01-2007, 8:51 PM
Thanks all for the nice links and replies. Drilling is not an option for me since the tank is already running, but ill keep that in mind my next one ;-)

I bought 2 new pumps, a magdrive 2400 to replace my 9.5 in my sump and a 3600 for my closed loop system i made. I have run into many problems i dont know how to deal with, so for now ive just upgraded the sump pump and built the rocks in a mound in the center and get very nice flow around them.

My problems:
1. The pumps will not "suck" water. I tried to design the sump pump to be outside the sump and suck water in-line up a piece of pvc and down the other side to the sump and then to the tank for return. for 2400gph, it couldnt suck water up a foot of 1" pvc. dont know if thats normal or not but i was disappointed non the less.
2. The pumps are VERY loud. My 9.5 was very quiet in the sump and I was very suprised at the noise level of the 24 and 36 models. I designed my closed loop system system with the pump hanging on the back, (had to use an aqua lifter to fill the intake pipe as per problem #1) then i finally got to turn it on and its the loudest clanking noise ive ever heard! I dont know how anyone uses these pumps! My tank is in my living room and it was just way to over bearing for that room. So needless to say i have taken out the closed loop system and am just running the sump at the moment until i can figure out a way to make use of the other pump. I even played around with putting the pump in the tank (which i really didnt want to do) and even that was very loud, who knows what stress that could add to the fish in the tank.

All in all i thought i planned it out well and did alot of research online with different setups and looked and read at the things posted, but was not pleased with how it turned out. I wish i knew those pumps were so loud before i ordered them.

Anyone have any suggestions that might be able to get this going for me or an alternate solution for a loop system, or other system to add flow? I cant have it running from the sump because the 2400 is almost overflowing the tank as it is and the overflow box is wide open. CPR CS102. It is suppose to be rated at 1200gph, so either that isnt accurate or the magdrive 2400gph pump is losing 1200gph with the 4ft head pressure from the pump, the box says 1700 at 4ft, but with those numbers im losing half my gph! but i installed a valve just in case i needed to cut the flow back anyway, so it really doesnt matter.

Thanks for any light you can shed on this for me.

c0mputernick
02-02-2007, 7:39 AM
What are the quietest pumps out there that have the same flow as the magdrive 24 and 36 models? that can be used operating outside of the aquarium? like hanging on the back or setting outside the sump?

mwitten
02-02-2007, 8:07 AM
Thanks all for the nice links and replies. Drilling is not an option for me since the tank is already running, but ill keep that in mind my next one ;-)


Well, it has been done, but I wound not try it...



My problems:
1. The pumps will not "suck" water. I tried to design the sump pump to be outside the sump and suck water in-line up a piece of pvc and down the other side to the sump and then to the tank for return. for 2400gph, it couldnt suck water up a foot of 1" pvc. dont know if thats normal or not but i was disappointed non the less.


No, impeller pumps have to have water to sling in the blades. Most closed loop systems simply have a T in-line that goes above the pump or water line to allow you to do the initial fill of water into the pipes. You fill it up, cap it off, and are then good to go. It takes something that can actually create a vacume, such as pumps that are used for dosing for that.


2. The pumps are VERY loud. My 9.5 was very quiet in the sump and I was very suprised at the noise level of the 24 and 36 models. I designed my closed loop system system with the pump hanging on the back, (had to use an aqua lifter to fill the intake pipe as per problem #1) then i finally got to turn it on and its the loudest clanking noise ive ever heard! I dont know how anyone uses these pumps! My tank is in my living room and it was just way to over bearing for that room. So needless to say i have taken out the closed loop system and am just running the sump at the moment until i can figure out a way to make use of the other pump. I even played around with putting the pump in the tank (which i really didnt want to do) and even that was very loud, who knows what stress that could add to the fish in the tank.


Was that when they were dry? Mag's should not be run dry, as I recall. Can burn them up pretty quickly, since the water is kind of a lubricant around the magnet in the shaft... take it apart and look at it and you will see what is happening. In any case, those are big pumps, and are really designed for use submerged. Lots of folks use them un-submerged, however.

I have spent a LOT of time reading threads on which pump is quiet, which is not, etc. I also have gotten ones folks say are quiet, only to find it can depend on head pressure or other issues of how they are used. Mags are, in my experience, pretty quiet, but the largest I ever had was an 18.


Did you use a head calculator? Those take into account pipe sizes, bends/turns, etc. They are fun to play with: You can see the effect of a single 90 degree elbow on flow (a LOT), as well as how much difference 1/4 inch of pipe diameter can make. I used the one on RC when planning my sump and a closed loop I tried:

http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php

Note that for a closed loop, you have to include the intake pipes as well as outflow.

One thing that causes a lot of noise on closed loops with large pipes is bubble creation on the intake. Could that be what you are hearing? If the pump is pulling water in too fast, faster than the pipe can support, it creates a vacuum that causes the water to vaporize (boil, really). That would also cut the flow considerably. Water pushes a lot better than it pulls. 90 degree bends can contribute to that as well.

I'll think on it some more...

Good Luck!

-Mike