Wanted to start a forum to ask the ARC what is important in a fish store to them? I have been planning this store for years, and want it to be the best it can be. Here are some potential subjects that I came up with.

Livestock (Health, Variety,Price,Acclimation,Nutrition, Quality)
Dry Goods ( Price, Variety, Presentation, Quantity)
The Store ( Layout, Displays, Fixtures, Cleanliness)
Life Support ( Size, Type, Components, Water Parameters)
Staff ( Knowledge, Quantity)

Thanks, Appreciate the feedback!

tank quality is my #1 thing... I know there are a few fish stores that I wont shop at simply because of the quality of tanks...

my rule of thumb is.. if you were to give me one of your store set ups... would I be proud to show it as is in my house??

obviously not every tank can be show quality because of the amount of fish that go thru there... but I think there should be a few nice ones.. marine fish would be a good example

as far as layout goes... I dont really care, whatever looks nice.. obviously keep the fresh and salt seperated... but if you only do salt that doesnt really matter..

staff needs to be knowledgable.. amount of workers I guess depends on the amount of customers you have

Cleanliness and knowledgeable are on the top of my list.
I hate going into a fish store and seeing dead fish in the tanks. It would be nice to have a few tanks out of our view that you can keep sick fish in. It is hard for me to buy a fish when there are others floating belly up in the same system.

We are going to have dedicated sick tanks in the back for both the freshwater and salt. Exstensive time will be taken to acclimate each fish shipment. The fish will also go through a series of dips to act as a preventative for disease.

We are also not going to starve our fish, 3 feeding per day. Prevention is the best cure for disease. We are going to feed foods that are high in HUFAS and vitamins to increase the fishes natural immune system and ablity to fight of disease. Hungry fish are stressed fish.

All corals will be dipped and quarantined before going into our sell displays to ensure they are not harboring any pests.

Out store is going to be clean!! That is one of the things that drove me to open my own store. No dead fish floating, and algae ( my arch enemy) will be controlled.

Yes, staff employed will be in direct ratio to sales. If you want to be helped, buy stuff!:D

I like a fish store with prices clearly marked on fish/corals. I don't like having to ask how much every item costs. You never really know if the employee tells you the same price as someone else.

I work out in Kennesaw so I look forward to checking out your store when it opens.

Thanks for the suggestion, keep um coming! We have a couple of neat ways we are going to try to mark livestock to make sure there is no confusion when it comes to pricing. Come check us out, you can take chastain or wade green across to 92!

I like a fish store with healthy tanks, One that makes an effort to try and get different livestock on occasion. I also like the prices to be clearly marked.

I also like stores that have a selection of drygoods such as lights, skimmers, etc in stock. You have a much better chance of selling it to me if I can put my hands on it and get it then. I dont like to here we can order it because so can I and probably cheaper.

I like the staff to be knowledgable and curtious but dont like having certain products or methods shoved down my throat.

I also like stores that cater to the custom like tanks and sumps and such. Either building it themselves or knowing where to source it.

Thanks for the feedback! We are going to strive to have great high water quality and a focus on preventive disease control. The filtration in the back will be open for all ARC members to check out. I want you to be able to see the equipment we are using to make sure the fish you are taking home are the healthiest hardiest fish around. For the Marine System, we have very high water turnover rates, huge Euro-Reef Protien Skimmer and a 1000 watts of UV that hits every bit of the return water to the tanks. If for some reason a fish comes down with a sickness , the fish is pulled and put in our hospital tanks in the back for treatement.

I am struggling with how much high end fixtures, lighting, and specialty equipment to have on hand. Lots of money to be tied up in inventory on low margin equipment. I can assure you though we will be fully stocked on Day One and will adjust according to the response and demand for such items.

Any particular brand you guys would like to see in the store and have us stock? I am going to a trade show this weekend to finalize the product mixes.

Thanks for all the great feedback!

John,
I forgot to address the custom work. We are going to have our own line of sumps at the store. And I have can get you anything you want built out of acrylic. For glass tanks we are working with Deep Sea Aquatic for all our custom glass tanks. Great guys, very high quality tanks, and fast turnover on custom jobs.

As far as methods for reef keeping. My motto is "their are a bunch of different way to skin a cat" All with the same result though.(hopfully) I learn something new about this amazing hobby every day. Most everbody I talk too know more than me, so I just shut up and listen.

Ok here is what I look for in a LFS just random thoughts.

I hate seeing dead fish not only do I feel sad for the fish but it makes me wonder about the health of the livestock.

There are too many stores that just dump and pray with the livestock. I want to know that the fish are kept from sale until they have had a chance to recover from shipment. This is a new thing with me and something that I feel strongly about. If that means that I don't visit a sponsor/store anymore because of it then so be it. That goes for ALL stores!

Clean tanks are a must.

Size of store is not important, layout is. You should be able to get to all tanks without having to be a contortionist.

Staff should be helpful but not hovering like vultures. They should be knowledgable and have some integrity!

And lastly as a customer I will not stand silent in ANY store while the help sells livestock or drygoods to unsuspecting newbies just to make a buck.

Heres an example...I once saw a young couple go into a store after they had seen nemo and wanted a clown fish. The man handed them a bag of salt and a clown and said mix up the water per the instructions and put your fish in. I was appalled and said something to the couple as I was walking out. I hope they decided against.

I would look at carrying the major light fixtures everybody uses such as current, auqalight,teklight, hamiton etc. I would try to have one of each even if you dont have all the sizes. If you have to order it at least people would be able to kick the tires before they commited to buying a particular fixture.

I know if I was opening a store I would try to definatly stock current fixtures in every popular sizes I could afford. The sundials and sunpods are all the rage right now and super affordable. I dont think you would have any problem selling them if your prices where on par.

As for tanks I would definatly try to stock the solona and 40b's

Id kick that LFS owner wrasse. Thanks for the feedback, some of the point you brought up is exactly what inspired me to take on this endevour. We will do our best to work hard for you! Come check out the shark and ray pool and 350 gallon reef tank!

Whats you feeling on Sunlight Supplies reflector and ballasts? They are coming out with a new reflector very soon that is suppose to be really nice.
Love Current's products, I am always wondering "Whats Next?" LOL, They did an awesome job on the Solana. We should have about 6 their on GRAND OPENING day deeply discounted. So if you have any buddys who are thinking about getting one...

I like a fish store with prices clearly marked on fish/corals. I don't like having to ask how much every item costs.

This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine (and not just in fish stores). I don't care HOW you mark livestock, just make it easy for me to match prices to items. Names written in grease pen on the tanks don't always work either. I may not know the name of what I'm looking at, especially in a coral tank.


I like the staff to be knowledgable and curtious but dont like having certain products or methods shoved down my throat.


Ooooo...another good one...I hate when that happens. I like to get feedback and suggestions, but I don't want to be told that the last person I spoke with was full of sh*t and I'm dumb for believing them. Major faux pas in my book. Tell me what you suggest. Tell me why. Let me make the decision from there. I don't want to feel like I'm being disloyal to you because I choose to do something differently from what you suggested.


I hate seeing dead fish not only do I feel sad for the fish but it makes me wonder about the health of the livestock.

I want to know that the fish are kept from sale until they have had a chance to recover from shipment. This is a new thing with me and something that I feel strongly about. If that means that I don't visit a sponsor/store anymore because of it then so be it.

When one of the sponsors recently had a huge sale, I was heartbroken that I couldn't go because of finances. Afterwards, I read all the posts where everyone talked about their purchases and how much fun they had - Ouch! Over the next couple of days, the posts turned to how much livestock didn't make it. :sad: I can't say why so much died and I'm not passing judgement, but there was a lot of talk about the possibility that the livestock hadn't had a chance to recover from shipment before being sold at the sale. Whether it's true or not, it certainly makes sense. I understand stores not being able to offer replacement or refund guarantees on livestock as it can be easily abused and run a store into bankruptcy, but at least do your part as a LFS to offer me the healthiest livestock with the best chance of survival. I've read some of your other posts and it appears that this concept hasn't escaped you and you intend to do just that. Don't do it short term - this should be an "as long as your doors are open" thing.


Clean tanks are a must.


Agree, agree, agree.

With regard to dry goods, I won't add to what's already been said (I agree with my fellow ARCers), but I will say that I especially like the LFSs that offer used equipment. It's a real plus for me.

#1 for me is the health of the fish. I don't mind paying a couple dollars more if I know the fish has a good chance of surviving in my system. I also believe that responsible reefkeeping can only exist when there's a happy marriage between a conscientious/responsible buyer and a conscientious/responsible seller.

And this is something I will avoid from now on: the lure of "new shipment just arrived -- come and get 'em." Maybe for corals and for drygoods, but I think the temptation of getting there first and buying it first is detrimental to the hobby and a death knell for the fish. It just seems to me that when a seller is trying to get that fish out the door a.s.a.p. and the money in his register, he's doing it to recover his investment and add to his profits at the expense of the livestock. In summary: let the fish die in the buyer's tank. But I think tossing fish in the "for sale" tanks immediately and hoping someone buys them before they die is horrible.

I don't know if these ideas would be feasible (economically speaking), but in a perfect aquaria world in my mind and in the perfect LFS in my imagination, it would be like this:

~ New fish arrive.
~ New arrivals are advertised.
~ New arrivals are placed in dated tanks.
~ Hobbyists have these options:
a. Buy the fish immediately (no warranty -- you're buying at your own risk)
b. Pay deposit on a fish, pay/pick up in two weeks (fish receives warranty)
c. Only buy fish from tanks that have contained the fish for 2+ weeks (fish receives full warranty)

A label on a tank would have this info:

-- Name of Fish
-- Reef Safe [_] Yes [_] No
-- Minimum Tank Size: ____
-- Date & Time Fish Arrived in the Store
-- Fish is Eating [_] Yes [_] No
-- Price

Footnote:

The sales staff in a *conscientious/responsible* LFS would be proactive in placing the fish in a system where it will have the greatest chance of survival by asking questions:
--How big is the tank you have planned for this fish?
--What will be its tankmates?
--How long has the system been established?
If the sales staff sees a red flag ("Oh, I'll be putting this yellow tang in a 12g nano..."), discourage the buyer from acquiring the fish!

Have literature on hand -- not everyone is a pro:
--Acclimation: similar to the sheet LiveAquaria includes with fish shipments
--Quarantine: tips and tricks
--Quick facts: about the particular fish (similar to PetCo, but better)

A label on a tank would have this info:

-- Name of Fish
-- Reef Safe [_] Yes [_] No
-- Minimum Tank Size: ____
-- Date & Time Fish Arrived in the Store
-- Fish is Eating [_] Yes [_] No
-- Price

For what little time it would take to do something like this, it would sure be helpful.



Have literature on hand -- not everyone is a pro:
--Acclimation: similar to the sheet LiveAquaria includes with fish shipments
--Quarantine: tips and tricks
--Quick facts: about the particular fish (similar to PetCo, but better)

Some years ago, I was a licensed rabbit breeder and this was something I did that was hugely successful. I had an info packet that had everything from distress signs to look for to what you should/shouldn't feed your new bunny. The top of the first page had info about when the bunny was born, who mommy and daddy were and the breed. Not only did it show my customers that I cared about the survival of the animal I was selling them, but it gave them something to refer back to after the excitement of the sale was over and they were trying to remember what they had been told. I really REALLY like the idea of the quick facts about a particular fish especially if there was a generic sheet of some sort that indicates what fish should/shouldn't be together. As buyers, it's our responsibility to be informed about our purchases, but speaking only for myself, I know I fall victim frequently to impulse buys and something like that would help me determine if I'm making a purchase that's going to wind up as a tankmate's snack. (Maybe something could be posted in the store? One of those charts you see with compatible tankmates?)

A label on a tank would have this info:

-- Name of Fish
-- Reef Safe [_] Yes [_] No
-- Minimum Tank Size: ____
-- Date & Time Fish Arrived in the Store
-- Fish is Eating [_] Yes [_] No
-- Price
You could edit this list down to:
-- Name of Fish
-- Date & Time Fish Arrived in the Store
-- Price
And keep a few copies of Marine Fishes (http://www.amazon.com/PocketExpert-Guide-Marine-Fishes-Essential/dp/1890087386/ref=pd_bbs_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1210620260&sr=8-3) and Marine Invertebrates (http://www.amazon.com/PocketExpert-Guide-Marine-Invertebrates-Essential/dp/1890087661/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b) in the fish section purely for customer browsing of information. Fish Store and More used to have the fish book around which was helpful, as does Cap Bay, I think. But by putting them out dedicated, you avoid mutilation of the selling supply of books. The books provide excellent quick info, plus allow customers to browse for special orders. They're also helpful in identifying which fish in the tank of fish you don't know by sight is the one you're after to check the price.

Plus, have somewhere the staff can easily find out what's being fed to what. "Is it eating?" is kind of 1/2 the battle, but important.

If you can put that kind of info on the tank like Linda suggested, it'd be nice, but I'd trade a few bits of information for up-to-date reliability. If fish get moved or bought, switch the names. It's really annoying to have to hunt down the price because nothing on or near the tank is accurate. I believe Marine Fish is the place that uses a wax pencil. I always liked that and it's easy for the staff to change, though it could get ugly with a ton of info and they aren't always diligent about updating either. The key for me is to keep whatever you use accurate.

A good smelling store... mom wont go into any that dont smell ok.

A good smelling store... mom wont go into any that dont smell ok.

I want it to smell good, but I don't want to choke on air freshener either. Too much air freshener tells me you're trying to cover something up ;)

I'd rather it smell like a fish store. Air fresheners, depending on what kind, can be toxic to fish.

Wow! Thanks for all the responses. We are defintely taking notes and implementing many(all):D of these ideas.

Our philosophy:

These are living creatures, not t-shirts on sale rack, and with that knowledge we have a responsiblity to give them the highest quality care possible while they are with us. When we source the fish we sell if we have to pay a little bit more to ensure that they are collected and handled in the best and most humane way, we will always choose to take that route.There is of course the ethical reasoning, but there is also the financial and practical reasons,if you buy cheaper fish and corals that have not been correctly collected and handled, you are going to lose those savings when 30 to 40 percent of them die, which leads to not only financial losses, but ultimately lost customers and the potential loss of new hobbyist who become discouraged. We will strive to only buy our fish from the best, net caught sources, and by not buying from the less discerning vendors, we hope to ultimately convey a message to collectors that the people that they sell to will accept nothing but the highest quality, sustainably collected livestock.

We want to be a resource to our customers and will always give them most accurate advice that has the livestocks best interest in mind, even if the end result of this information is not a sale.

Unfortunately this is not always the cheapest route but I think the most ethical and responsible one, and ultimately what will be best for the long term benifit of this wonderful and amazing hobby.

Hope to see you all soon.( This will make paying the power bill much easier :D ) Feel free to pm, call, or email me with any questions you have!

I think a LFS should focus on livestock more than dry goods. Heres why: I don't care how good your dry good prices are, I guarantee I can find it cheaper online. Brick and mortar stores simply can't compete here. I come to LFSs for livestock because I hate dealing with shipping times, minimum orders, not being able to see the condition of the fish and excess freight charges. I think having a variety of livestock is what will set your store apart. Live rock is also something I hate ordering online.
By the way, I am looking forward to seeing the TDS meter of you water as I only buy water and often suspect it of being bad. This is a really good idea.

4" 100 micron Filter Socks and Reef Crystals my two most frequent purchases! But seriously, it sounds like you've really put some serious thought into this and are going to go about it the right way. Make sure to stick to your philosophies and I'm sure that you will succeed! The best of luck to you!

aquacultured section. It would be nice to have a section devoted to tank raised corals/fish if it is feasible.

How about a demo night for us "newbies"? Pick a night once a month. Call it "Fish Class" or something cool. Have an agenda like "basic equipment" where for like 30 mins. you cover all of the stuff you need. Then the last 30 mins is for questions. Or maybe one time it's for freshwater owners, another month you cover salt, another corals.

I have been taking this new hobby slow and asking a tons of questions at LFS but sometimes I feel bit rushed when there is a store full of customers.

Which I understand.

Just a thought,

Creation Reef & Aquatics I live in Kennesaw Im going to visit your store 2morrow. ;)

Just so you know there isn't much to see, when I talked to Matt (the owner) the had barely begun breaking ground on the structure of the store, let alone get any tanks in there. This was back 3 weeks ago or so, but don't expect much. The owners probably won't even be there depending on how far the construction crew has gotten.

How about a demo night for us "newbies"? Pick a night once a month. Call it "Fish Class" or something cool. Have an agenda like "basic equipment" where for like 30 mins. you cover all of the stuff you need. Then the last 30 mins is for questions. Or maybe one time it's for freshwater owners, another month you cover salt, another corals.

I have been taking this new hobby slow and asking a tons of questions at LFS but sometimes I feel bit rushed when there is a store full of customers.

Which I understand.

Just a thought,

I think this is a great idea! We will be implementing it and will tell you when the first class will be. The store is still moving forward and we are planning on hitting our mid August opening date. Thanks for the feedback!

Matt

Sorry, if I missed it!

Opening Date is the First or Second Week of October. We will send out an email to the ARC when it is final. We are plumbing away... Look forward to seeing everybody.

I think that the only few things missed here are things that maybe I only care about.

I would like to see some higher-end things (very hard to get around here, imo). Since there's not a huge overhead on it, most stores stick to cheap things. That translates to cheap quality and poor goods (most of the time). Exceptions are, mostly, skimmers (at least I think). For $150-$250, you can go online and get a very good skimmer that clones the basic design of a $500-$750 one. Brands like Reef Octopus, DAS, H&S come to mind. ATB skimmers, Bubble Kings (for those with 400G+ tanks or too much money to spend). Specialty items. Quality reflectors (TEK/SLS T5, Lumenarc/Lumenbright). Just a small stock goes a long way. I would love to see a special section for LE/ORA/exceptionally colored frags. A well-informed and helpful staff is a must. So is a clean store.

And on the tags, collection locale is a must imo. An Indo flame angel is a whole different ball game in comparison to a Hawai'ian. Indos are rarely healthy and the color is not as vivid; Hawai'ians are a gorgeous, full-bodied red and eat like pigs. :) In fact, anything Hawai'ian is a guaranteed healthy specimen. That's why I feel it belongs on the tag. You could even make it a little flip tag (folded over), with the name/scientific name, picture on the front and diet, max size, special care, collection locale, etc. on the inside flap.

Linda Lee,
That is the best suggestion yet regarding labeling the livestock.

Yes I agree that the same fish from different parts of the world will look different. Hawian and Australian fish have a reputation for be the most stunning version of their species. The health of the fish though is normally tied to how the fish was caught, held, tranported, and then once at the dealer (me) quarantined and then cared for.

I know with flame angels that come from Indo are normally hand caught but then are kept for weeks in wooden crates in inland waters or harbors until it is time to ship them. These waters are poluted and nutrient rich which stresses the fish. Crypto outbreaks are also very common because of the stress the fish are under and forced close proximity to eachother in the crates. Crypto starts in the gills before cysts develop on body, this is why many of these fish look and appear healthy but come down with an ich infestation once at the dealers or home aquarium. Alway quarantine new arrivals and if possible do prophylactic dips.

We are plumbing the systems! Still planning on opening the first weekend in October.Will be sending out an email. announcing the store opening. Also check out the website for updates. Creationpet.com